Sravana Borkataky-Varma: Tantra’s Truths and Secrets

Elizabeth Rovere:

Hello and welcome to Wonderstruck. I am your host, Elizabeth Rovere. I’m a clinical psychologist, a yoga teacher, and a graduate of Harvard Divinity School. I’m really curious about our experiences of wonder and awe, and how they transform us. My guest today is Sravana Borkataky-Varma. Born in Assam, India, Sravana is a fellow at Harvard Divinity School’s Center for the Study of World Religions, and an active board member and teacher at Esalen Institute.

Her main focus is on esoteric rituals and gender in Hindu traditions. She is currently working on several upcoming books, including Divinized Divas: Superwomen, Wives, Hijṛās In Hindu Śākta Tantra. From early childhood, Sravana experienced both clairvoyance and clairaudience. She sees and hears things others cannot perceive. At eight years old, mindful of these gifts, she began her initiation into the tantra tradition.

She continues to practice Hindu Shakta Tantra and educate others about tantra’s true meaning. Sravana is here to set the record straight, pushing back against the perception that tantra is merely about sexual performance. Coming up, Sravana unpacks what tantra really is, why it matters, and what it has helped her understand about life, death, and seeking out harmony and liberation.

So, I think we should start with tantra. Maybe you could explain to our audience, what is tantra, what is it not, and what is specific about Hindu Shakta Tantra.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

So, first of all, thank you, Elizabeth. Thank you for inviting me to this wonderful podcast. It’s an honor. What is tantra? It is one of the most contested terms, I would say, in the history of… it’s one of the top 10, I would say, contested terms. Because it has a very, very complex history. And this history goes for thousands of years. And then in that big history, I call… there is a pizza effect, where there’s a lot that happened with the transmission.

So, where we are today with the term tantra needs to be teased out in a true sense of the way. But at the same time, not everyone needs to be a scholar of tantra, and do a PhD, and figure this history. So, how I kind of understand and explain tantra is that, first – as long as we acknowledge that it’s a complex history, so that is really, really important to begin with – it’s a path, it’s a way of living.

That does not mean there is only one path or one way of living. It is one way, among many paths. It is not saying the other paths are less or other paths are more. And I say this very intentionally, because in tantra, in some schools of tantra, there is this understanding that tantra is a higher path, it is meant for people with a certain persona or certain level of astute sense of what human and macrocosm and microcosm are.

And when we do this higher path, by default we are saying there is a lower path. And by that, what we are doing is we are kind of putting a divide in the spiritual path. And so, I’m very cognizant of that and that’s why I would say it’s one path. And it is a path; it’s a choice. This path has another feature, which is there are certain rituals and there are certain texts that inform us about how our human body is connected to the divine body.

Again, that does not mean that other paths don’t have it, but this has certain unique features and that’s where historically the definitions come up. There are just so many definitions. So, when I was doing my PhD, my advisor said – I did my PhD with Jeffrey Kripal at Rice University – and he said, “Sravana, you can’t be a scholar practitioner and not have a definition for tantra.” Crisis. Classic PhD dissertation crisis moment, right? I think I spent eight months not writing anything because I could not figure out a definition. And it has taken me some time.

But to come to what is not tantra, I would first like to define what is tantra. So, I define tantra in a much more broader sense of the way. I say if there are these four features, and all four have to be present for me to say it is tantra. Number one: the human body, including the bodily fluids, are not rejected. Number two: there is an active practice, active engagement, of the subtle body. And whatever that subtle body looks like for you in your tradition, whatever names you use, whatever terms you use, those can change.

For example, in our tradition we do a lot of breath work, breath holding. Nadis, the channels, the chakras come into play. Now, there could be a tradition that has a different understanding of the subtle body, because it is plural, it is not one definition. Number three: there is some kind of a tool that you will use. Mantra and a mandala. Mantra or a yantra. There is a tool that you will use to intentionally – and intentionality is extremely important here – intentionally to enter the macrocosm, and intentionally to exit the macrocosm. So, the intentionality is key.

And the fourth element is: liberation is possible in this lifetime. Jīvanmukta. So, if you have these four elements in your practice – it could be religious, it could be spiritual, it could be both, it could be neither – I would say it’s tantra. So then it can apply to Christian traditions, Islamic traditions, Hindu traditions, Buddhist traditions, Jain traditions, Sikh traditions. So, it’s really up to that particular practice set that can become tantra. And historically we know that tantra is present in many, many traditions.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. I mean, it seems like such an incredibly ancient, profound practice. And then it was taken into Hinduism or Buddhism on aspects perhaps of Christian mysticism, I’m not sure.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

I’m not an expert in Christian mysticism, but from where I stand, what I see, how I teach it, I see it everywhere.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You see it everywhere.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

I see it everywhere. It’s just that that’s what comes to the transmission. Somehow, for a very complex history, tantra gets understood as… in the context of sex.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s because of the body? Because you’re saying the body is that which is also sacred, the bodily fluids are sacred.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yes. Also, I think in the 1800s, for the theosophists, and the theosophical interpretation. And then all the teachers that came here… so, it’s not just the West interpretation, but also what the eastern teachers did when they came to the West. It got taught in a very certain, particular way, especially in the 1950s, ’60s. It got taught, and the culture absorbed it in a very… in a tiny little sliver, and that became tantra. So, that’s the reason why many people don’t want to use the term. Many people stay away from the term. And then also why people like us, we get branded. It happened to me on Facebook. I was banned from Facebook.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Oh, that’s exciting.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

I know, right? Because I was teaching. The course I was going to teach this to the internet. The course title was ‘Goddess’, right? And ‘Shakta Tantra’. And Facebook kept sending me emails after emails saying I am selling pornography. And I got so mad.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Oh, my God.   

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Anybody and everybody I could get a hold of in an email saying, “This is exactly why this course is needed.”

Elizabeth Rovere:

To clarify what this is really about.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Correct.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And how it’s so much more than some kind of, like, hippie sex practice from the ’50s.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Exactly.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And that’s absurd. You said once, it made me laugh, that it’s as if talking about Catholicism was about self-flagellation.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Exactly, right? It is not.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s not.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

And how did I become a prostitute? But apparently, oh my God, for Facebook I’m like, you know, doing whatever I was doing. But I think… so, it really comes down to, therefore, this is from neo-tantra. Yes, there are elements of sexual practices, I’m not saying there aren’t. I’m not saying in the path of tantra there are no rituals or texts that talk about the sexual practices or sexual fluids, but they are all generated for accessing the macrocosm, accessing the divine or accessing the divine inside of us or identifying the divine inside of us. It’s the classic, ‘I see you, you see me’ in this divine way. So, that’s tantra.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s so beautiful. And it’s also accepting of the whole picture. It’s not just as though, ‘This is acceptable, this is what’s good enough for spirituality or God.’ It’s like all of you. Everything is.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Totally. And it doesn’t matter what gender identity we take, everything is. But at the same time, the human body is also not a playground.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Of course.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

And that is very kind of more unique to tantra, and needs to be emphasized, because when we understand the human body in this context of neo-tantra, which is more focused on sex and sexual fulfillment, and finding the divine through sexual fulfillment, somewhere we forget how sacred the human body is. And so, it’s not a playground.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, I would think that any of these practices would be done with reverence and aspect of the sacred. It’s not about, as you said, a playground. What distinguishes Shakta Tantra from tantra?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

At a very fundamental level, I would say there is no difference. So, Shiva Tantra, Shakta Tantra, then there is the… tradition. I think we are all operating kind of on the same foundation. However, in Shakta Tantra, the goddess kind of becomes the front and center. So, we operate with the Dasa Mahavidyas, the 10 great wisdom goddesses, as they are called.

Elizabeth Rovere:

The 10 great wisdom goddesses, I love that.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Right. But then it’s not like they are just 10. So, I’ll give you an example of Kali, and the reason I bring Kali, because I think Kali is the most well known globally. She’s like a global goddess, right? Now, I get students who would be like, “Oh, I love Kali. Kali appeared to me. I want to cultivate a relationship with Kali.” And my first question is, “Which Kali?” And they’re looking at me like, huh? Like, what are you even talking about?

I was like, “No, there are many personas of Kali, right? Like us. I’m not one persona, I have so many different aspects of me. And so, Kali can be maternal Kali, can be warrior Kali, can be somebody who is malevolent. And you know, there could be so many different forms of Kali. So, which Kali would you want to have a relationship, quote unquote, with, in this context?” So, in Shakta Tantra, the goddess becomes front and center. So, you kind of… she becomes your lead person, and then she becomes you, you become her. And that’s the dissolving that we are trying to achieve.

Elizabeth Rovere:

About the divine coming in and you going into the divine.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

And at some point there is no separation.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And at some point there is no… that’s profound. And so, is that a type of visualization practice, or does it involve mantra? Can you talk about… because I know that some of it is deemed esoteric or more secret; is it possible to talk about some of these practices?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

So, I do want to talk about secrecy a little bit, and then I will talk about maybe a few practices. I have thought about secrecy a ton, and it means a lot to me, because I am an initiate. From that standpoint, secrecy comes up a lot. What I have come to understand is there are two elements to secrecy. One is pure hypermasculinity, patriarchy, because these traditions were largely taught by men, for men, by men. So, there is an enormous element of, as I said, hypermasculinity, par, and trying to hold on to that space.

Then there is the calculus of the neo-liberal aspects of it, because with power comes money. That… all those elements that gets clubbed as secrecy – and they say don’t tell anyone this – I have decided to speak about it in public. I am done with you guys, like I am done, right? So, I am going to bring it out, I am going to teach it, I am going to talk about it, and I am going to give my students access to these practices.

But there is also secrecy that I keep for myself. And that is, what I’ve come to realize is, there are stages to the practice. So, it’s not like I don’t want to give one of my students the next level practice. I’m not going to give it, because they’re not ready. They’re not ready. It could create a bigger fracture in them, or they may not understand the depths of it. And so, they may see that, saying, oh, I am “trying to keep this a secret”, but it is not secret. It is just that it will be very irresponsible of me to – you know, if a child is six years old, you don’t talk about all topics because they are not ready for it, right? There is a time and a place and a progression.

So, with that, when it comes to certain practices, when we get initiated we are given, we call it  ishta-devi, the cherished goddess. It could be a god, it could be a third gender, a divinity. But you’re given one divine being. The way it works is there will be a teacher who will say a mantra – whisper a mantra in your ear once – and you have to repeat it by hearing it once. If you get it, then it’s meant for you. If you don’t get it, like, if you forget it or you couldn’t repeat it correctly, then this is not the right time for you.

And so, you can see where the power and secrecy and all these things come up, right? Because somebody can say it in a certain rhythm and you didn’t get it or it was too loud. But you can see how complex it is. At the same time, how sacred it is, right? So, we are given a mantra, and again, it is persona-driven. Sometimes it could be one syllable, or it could be 50 seed syllables that is there in the mantra, right?

Elizabeth Rovere:

That’s long.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yes, so it is decided at that moment, and there are many things that go – and it’s not like you just show up and they give you a mantra, right? You have lots of conversations before that. You do a lot of reading before that. You do a lot. So, there’s a lot of prep before that. Then you’re given a mantra, and then you’re given a set of instructions of how now you will engage with the divine. And strangely…

Elizabeth Rovere:

With the divine through the particular god, goddess, transgender deity?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Correct. And how will you engage? Because remember, I said it’s intentional engagement. It is not accidental engagement, right? So, how will you do it? Now, those rituals look very different for different people. And then also within the, like, Shakta Tantra, there will be some formats that are similar, then there are some that are completely different.

So, for example, for certain people, they would be told, okay, “You do this, this, and this in the morning,” right? You do this mantra maybe 50 times or 51 times, 108 times. You pray to the goddess this way, you know? You meditate this way. And then, for me, for example, I was very clearly given the instruction that, don’t regiment your set of rituals. Apparent… and I’ll tell you why I say apparently, because I tried to also regiment. I was like, ‘Hmm, why do I have to list it all?’

Okay, that’s my persona. So, I was told you need to have a set of rituals. I do fasting certain times in the year, I do certain rituals in a very strict fashion at certain times in the year – but for the majority of the year, I can walk my dog, and I will say my mantra. I will cook, I will do laundry, I will drive, I will do my breaths a certain way from traffic light to traffic light.

And then I was like, ‘Oh wait, maybe if I do the rigid way, maybe I will get somewhere.’ You know, it’s like the grass is greener on the other side. Like, ‘Why did they say no to me?’ And so, for almost two years I tried to do the other side. It was such a disaster. It was so bad, Elizabeth, I cannot tell you. It was so bad.

And so, then I went to… my first teacher passed away, so I now have a second teacher, and I went to a second teacher and he was like, “Who asked you to do it?” I was like, “Because I thought like, you know, maybe you guys are, like, not giving me the whole manual of sorts.” And no, so there are certain rituals that we do, there are certain fasting rituals. So, for example, you know, Shivaratri is coming up very soon, which is a day of fasting.

Especially in the night we try not to sleep that night, right? Because we believe the portal is open, and the portal is open because the way the planets, the sun and moon are aligned. It’s the lunar calendar, right? We follow the lunar calendar. The way it’s aligned, it’s a very big opening of the portal. So, we want to maximize that. I do very intense nine-day fasting for the goddess during Navaratri.

And when I say intense, like, I would eat maybe one fruit a day, sometimes just a few almonds a day. And it’s perfectly fine, like I don’t faint, or so far I have not fainted, but we will see. But you know, so there are certain times of the year I am very, very, very strict. But then there are times in the year I’ll just go with the flow.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And the practices are daily. And I heard you once say to, I think it was Seth Powell on The Yoga Studies Podcast, you said, “I don’t even know how many times I repeat my mantra, it’s just like my breath. It’s just almost a constant experience.”

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Correct.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And I thought that was so beautiful, and it made me, again, also think about how you were initiated. You came to the tradition at eight years old, I mean, which is profound. Which is, in and of itself, an incredible story – which I think would be a beautiful thing for our listeners to hear as well – that I understand you were having visions and experiences as a child that you brought to your parents. And then also in your astrological chart it said, ‘She’s destined to be a guru.’

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

And have a temple.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And have a temple. I mean, that is an amazing thing, that you were saying that that is a phenomenon that happens in Assam, I guess where people get their astrological chart at birth.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

I would say for a majority of the Hindu families. It’s nothing to do with the state, I think.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s a religious aspect.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

I guess so. I would want to say that, but if I say religious somebody will come after me saying, “Oh, it’s not religious, it’s spiritual, or it’s cultural, social.” I call it the social-cultural DNA of Hindu society, let’s just put it that way.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Okay, that makes sense. That’s very encompassing, that’s good.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yes, yes, social-cultural DNA. It covers all my bases. Yeah, I’ve been on this path now for, I’ll be 48 this year, so 40 years I’ve been on this path. So, yes, absolutely, it started with what I have come to understand as clairaudience or clairvoyance. So, I would get very clear messages. Or a very clear vision. And these would be for someone.

And before that comes there are two very atypical body, physical body sensation that happens. So, it’s almost like I know it’s coming. And one of them, I am pretty chilled and I can deal with it, and the other sensation, it’s not my favorite, but it’s not like you get to choose. So, it started very, very early.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Can you tell us, what is the sensation?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yeah, absolutely. So, one of them is, you know, the way I can describe it, and I think language doesn’t do justice for it, but I’ll try my best. It feels like you have goosebumps or chills, but from every cell in your body. From the bottom of your feet to the top of your head, and it doesn’t go away. It’ll stay for days together sometimes. And I don’t mind that. You know, I’m like, ‘Oh, okay, cool, and I can…’

Elizabeth Rovere:

I know what it is.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

I know what it is. And I don’t lose my balance. I mean, I feel I can still manage my life. And the other one is, you know if you are driving on a highway or a freeway, and you have little bit of the window open and you have the whoosh, whoosh, whoosh sound, and it hits your ears a certain way? I don’t like that one, because then that stays for days. And I feel very disoriented. That is a time when I can’t find the way to my own home. If I’m walking, I would have walked for two and a half hours, and I’ll be in a part of the city, I’m like, ‘Huh, what? Where am I?’ So, thanks to Google Maps now and smartphones, I am much better.

So, these are two very distinct signs for me saying, ‘Okay, this is going to happen now.’ Then I don’t control if it’s going to happen within an hour or it can take two days or three days. There is no mechanism for me to gauge that. So, this started very early on and continues – but, of course, in 40 years I’ve become much more comfortable, I guess. And at that time, my only way out was to go tell my parents that, “Hey, like, this is happening,” and I was much more closer to my dad.

So, I would call him Baba. So, I would go to Baba and tell him, “So, you know, I think the frequency had increased quite a bit.” And so we are from Assam, and therefore… So, I am guessing if we were from Tamil Nadu, we would have gone to another temple in the south of India, right? I mean, but that is where I went.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You would see things and hear things, and then tell your dad that this is going to…

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

This is going to happen.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Is there an example?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

It could be, like, I would wake up and say so and so has died. And then, you know, at that time we didn’t have phones or internet, so a telegram will come saying so and so has died, right? Or so and so is going to get into an accident, and we need to tell them to be careful or whatever. And these were really times before any kind of internet, and yeah. So, yeah, so you know, it was very clear messages like that.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Were you comfortable with it? Was it jarring, or were you like, ‘Oh, this happened, I’ve got to go tell my dad?’ How did he respond?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

I think I was very blessed. I am very blessed, Elizabeth. I cannot tell you how blessed I am to have family, friends who have accepted me for who I am. And when I was young, for them to not make a big deal out of it or to shun it, right? Neither. It was like, “Oh, okay, again? All right. Let’s move on, let’s go to school,” you know? Okay, you know, “It’s time to go to school.” So it was very normalized for me, to a point where I thought everybody got them.

Like, I didn’t realize there was anything different about me. I mean, now as a mother, and have gone through that process, I was a weird child. Like, I was that child in kindergarten who is dancing by themselves and have imaginary friends. I was that. But at that time I didn’t know there was anything wrong with that kind of existence.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, that it was unusual or exceptional in some way.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yeah, nothing, nothing. It was so normalized. And so, that’s when I got initiated at the age of eight and life went on. I don’t remember much of that initiation. I only remember what my father then kind of relayed. I think I was too young.

Elizabeth Rovere:

So, can you explain what initiation means?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Okay, so what does initiation mean? Initiation means you are now being brought to the path, right? And there are many levels of initiation, but this is to say, ‘Here’s how you begin.’ So, you then get initiated not only into the path, but also into a particular tradition, and then also into a lineage. So, it’s not – so yes, it is tantra, Shakta Tantra, Kamakhya, which is the lineage. And then your teacher, so you actually take initiation into – it’s kind of like the threefold refuge you take to become Buddhist, right? Buddham saranam gacchami. Dhammam saranam gacchami. Sangham saranam gacchami. I take refuge in Buddha. I take refuge in the Dharma. I take refuge in the Sangha. So, here, similarly we are initiated into the tantra way of being, and the tantra part, but that means nothing. So, now comes the goddess, that becomes your freeway. And then you come into your toll road, so that becomes your lineage, your gurus, and your teachers, and your texts.

I do remember my 15, that was the next step. So, there are lots of stages in initiation. It’s not like you get initiated, and that’s it, right? So, there are multi-stage processes. As I said, it’s like you go from elementary school to middle to high to whatever, right? I remember the thing at 15 years, that I remember very clearly and very distinctly.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Was that when you got the mantra?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

No, the mantra was given at eight. This was the next level where the next set of rituals were going to be taught to me. And it was done without fanfare, because my parents never believed in fanfare. I guess we also didn’t have money to pay for the fanfare. But I remember a special food was prepared. So, my mom was asked to make all of my special dishes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

How nice. Wait, you’ve got to tell us one of your special dishes.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Fish. A river fish that you get in India. Not only my mom made all the special dishes, they were also served very traditionally. So, you have this kind of a big round plate made of eight metals, and there are eight metal bowls – so, it’s called ashtadhatu. It’s a combination of eight metals, and the entire crockery is made of this eight metals. And then the dishes are served in smaller bowls, and they’re laid in a very ritualistic sense, because you eat from one side to the other.

And then my mom and my dad… and remember I was 15, I was a teenager, so you can only imagine how cool I thought this whole thing was, right? They brought traditional lambs. And so, my teacher was now going to give me the next set of instructions. We were sitting on the floor, and so we were both sitting, and the food that my mom and my dad bring – like, a traditional… we call it a ghee, like a traditional clarified butter lamb – so, they place… you know how you bow to the divine or whatever, so they placed that, then they placed the food.

And so, I’m thinking this teacher is going to eat my favorite dishes, right? Because I was like, ‘Huh? Like what is happening?’ And he looks at me and he says, “No, you are going to eat today and I am not.” Like, “It’s your turn.” So, it’s a very big, which I understood much later during my PhD, that is a huge step. Your teacher now is saying, “You are going to be the teacher.” So it’s kind of like a mantle transfer. And I understood the intensity of it even more, as I said, much later during my PhD studies. He passed away very soon after, so I didn’t realize then…

Elizabeth Rovere:

That’s what it was.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yeah, that’s what it was. But it was much later I understood the significance of that day. But it has stayed with me. And you know, now I have a lot more depth to that day, a lot of emotional attachment to that day. At the same time, I laugh because I was more worried about who’s going to get to eat that.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Who’s going to eat the fish.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

All the fish and all the stuff that my mom made, which were my favorite dishes, right? So, it was kind of funny how memory gets told.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, but it’s also just so lovely because it’s like here’s the 15-year-old kid, like am I going to eat the fish, and when. And it’s also about the mentor is passing, or the teacher is passing, and giving and passing this way of being, and this practice to me, like this type of initiation to me. And it’s like this beautiful ritualized way of how, and the process of eating these different dishes that you’re taking into your body, like taking in the food, taking in the spirit, giving. You know, it’s beautiful.

I think that something that’s fascinating that people don’t know about, so I’m going to give you three things, so bear with me. But the type of practices in a cremation ground, right? I mean, this is the transformation, transition of the body, of dying, and being in a meditative or various rituals and practices. I mean, that is something I think that’s pretty uncommon in the West, right? Like someone dies and you’re like, ‘Oh, let’s move on,’ you know? We don’t deal with it very well at all. I think it’s atrocious, but that’s another story. But like these practices in the cremation ground.

And then there’s also the aspect of the transgender deities, which is so fascinating, and gender fluidity within the tradition. And then there’s also the aspect of being a woman and worshiping a goddess, and practitioners of worshiping a goddess, and the role of women, right? On the surface you would think, like, women must be revered, that must be incredible, but it’s not exactly.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

No.

Elizabeth Rovere:

So, I know I’m looking at three different things here.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

So, I’m going to combine them, how about that?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Okay, I thought you would.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yeah, because you know, it’s a podcast, it’s not a semester where we get…

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s not a semester.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Exactly. So, let’s go reverse. No, not all the way reverse. I’m going to kind of do a little dance here. Okay, so, let’s start with a woman worshiping a woman goddess. Why is that so… why does it sit in our ears strangely, right? Because when we leave our body – whatever that is, Atman, soul, whatever term you use. Breath, maybe just a breath – we are genderless.

When we enter the body, we are genderless, right? And then we look at things like marriage, and suddenly we think there is this kind of man-woman situation. I have sat through a few weddings in different traditions. Every time the person officiating the wedding will say, “This is meeting of two souls.” I’ve always heard that line, and always my brain explodes saying, ‘Okay, meeting of two souls is genderless,’ right? It is gender fluid.

So, what happens in rituals, it could be engaging with a goddess or it could be very out there, which is practicing in a cremation ground. And the reason we do Shava Sadhana, not everybody does it, and I…

Elizabeth Rovere:

What does that mean?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Shava Sadhana. Corpse practice.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Oh, wow. So, can you explain to us what Shava Sadhana is, this corpse practice?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

So, there are many different ways in the tradition that it is done. Primarily it is done to overcome the fear of death. We believe if we have overcome the fear of death, that’s the biggest hurdle we have gone past. And so how this is typically done is you are in the cremation ground with burning corpses, so there is a lot of burning flesh smell that is mixed with clarified butter – because you know, when you are ritualistically burning, cremating someone, there are lots of substances that go with it, right?

So, there are flowers, there is clarified butter, there is wood, there is a whole bunch of things. But it kind of produces a very unique smell, because there’s also the burning flesh. And it is a space that is as liminal as it comes, right? I don’t find another place as liminal. So, here what you do is you’re under the guidance of a teacher; you don’t do this without guidance. Or you have done it enough, but you will still do it in a group. It’s not like you just randomly go into a cremation ground and you start doing it, at least that’s not the advice I’ve heard.

And essentially what you do is, there are many levels of the practice, which I would not want to share in the podcast, but essentially what you are doing is you are meditating on death in the cremation ground – and you are trying to address, bring forth your fears of death, dying, and beyond. And which usually have a lot of emotions attached to it. And you’re trying to get past one after the other. Like, kind of, just say, ‘Okay, can I let go of my family?’ ‘Can I let go of the attachment to this, attachment to that,’ and so on and so forth. Yeah.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Wonderful, thank you for sharing that. And from what you’ve also said it sounds like you’ve yourself been able to get to a certain place that you feel relatively comfortable with death.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yes, that’s a long journey. There is a lot to be overcome. So, I’m nowhere close to that. When I see some of my friends and family, I would say I’m also a little bit ahead. And it’s all – yeah, it’s all about death. Can I say a joke here?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Okay, so you know, it’s all about death because – I say this in my classrooms always, and in my public talks – the fact that we are here, we got a grade F, right? Remember, I’m Indian. You can bring me out of India, but you can’t take India out of me. So, grades is everything. A ‘B+’ is, in my mind, fail, right? F. I know all the books I’ve read, and so on and so forth.

But, the fact of the matter is we, kind of, maybe got F+, but we did get an F, that’s why we came back. Because if we were A, we would have got enlightenment, nirvana. We didn’t get it, right? So, given that we failed, so it’s all about get ready, so that at least maybe – I know I’m not going to get an A, but maybe I get a D, or maybe…

Elizabeth Rovere:

Maybe a B+.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Maybe a B+, but still remember it’s an F. So, that’s why we do these practices

Elizabeth Rovere:

All for the grades.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

All for the grades. And I think it’s very important. Not everybody can deal with death, dying, and beyond in that level of comfort, right?

Elizabeth Rovere:

And reverence.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

And reverence. Like I say, I’m a very bad… like, I’ve learned to be a better Saturday dinner- party conversationist, because I say “I love death. I love death.” Like, “What did you do this morning?” “I went to Houston Hospice, and I volunteered there.” And the next thing you know, there are five people who ran away from me because they’re like, ‘Uh, she’s a weird one.’ But that’s my persona.

It, again, goes back to initiation, right? My persona is I find death, dying, and beyond to be the most generative place. The place where I get most information. I learn the most from hospice patients. I learn the most from seeing things die and wither. I get the least from spring, for example, right? Also allergies. I’m like, ‘Ah,’ you know? My eyes are running, whatever.

So, now comes these rituals. All these rituals, no matter as intense, or as out-there as the corpse practice, or it could be a prayer practice in your home with incense and beautiful mantras, chanting, right? The idea is to identify the fluidity. Transcend the binary.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Wait, can we say that again? To identify the fluidity.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Identify the fluidity and transcend the binary. And it is not just one binary that we are trying to do, right? Gender is one. Good and bad. Ugly and beautiful. Angry and loving. Day and night. Sun and moon, right? Everything. The minute we have that breath or the vibration, the Spandana enter the body, from that moment the separation began, right? Everything became two. So, now, tantra is… when we go back to my definition, I said it is about jīvanmukta, the liberation in this lifetime, right? So, achieving some amount of unity in this lifetime is tantra.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Is tantra, but it’s liberation and it’s enlightenment.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

And it’s enlightenment. And so, I’m somebody who is a very spreadsheet person, and a to-do person. And I’m also a flawed being, let’s be very clear. I’m no perfect being. But for me, every New Year’s resolution, I take one topic. And it’s usually something that is highly contested in the society today. And I say, ‘Where am I, January 1st, on this debate? Where will I be?’ And then every day my meditative practice is only focusing on that binary and seeing, ‘Have I shifted?’
Because I cannot teach or practice or be in this path if I can’t see progression. It’s like running on a treadmill, right? If I’m always going to run at three, that’s boring. At some point I’ll be like, ‘What the hell?’ Sorry, I guess I’m not supposed to use this language. Edit it, podcast, whatever. But essentially for me it is, take a topic – any topic, anything that you feel passionate about – bring it to your practice, and engage with it through these rituals, through these meditative practices.

Take that question into the macrocosm. Because in tantra we also believe the blueprint is within us. We were born with the blueprint. All the answers are with us, it’s just that either we’ve not learned how to read the codes, or what I say, sometimes you have to uninstall and reinstall, and have a software update. That’s all we need to do. The answer is there, and the answer is union, but, ‘How do I transcend?’

So, that becomes your everyday, every-moment practice. And that’s where I think I’m very different, and sometimes controversial. Because for a lot of people, they don’t see tantra being applied to such mundane tasks. And I am saying, you’ve got it wrong. I think I need to apply it, and if I don’t have – because you know, otherwise it becomes a very, very big, very wide funnel, right? Macrocosm, divine, universe. These become too large of a thing to delve into.

Elizabeth Rovere:

But it’s also saying that everything is sacred.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Absolutely.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Like everything. Like the mundane, the profane, it’s all God, so to speak, right?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yeah, because sacred and profane is also binary.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s binary.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

We were taught, and we started seeing that way, right? ‘This is a sacred place.’ ‘This is a profane place.’ ‘This is a sacred object,’ ‘This is a…’ Why? Where did this come from?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Where did it come from? Yeah, I don’t know. Like when you take a topic, for example. I mean, would you be willing to share with us one of the topics that you’ve done that kind of work with, that you meditate on, a binary, and how you’ve changed, then, your perspective over that course of practice?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yes, I will actually take the topic of gender identity. So, in India, growing up… and this is, again, I am so happy that I have this orientation more so in the West, and having to send my daughter through school, and college here. In India, while we have divinities who take on a third gender, we have divinities who crossdress, we have divinities who, for a period of time in a year are a certain gender and in another period of time they will be another gender.

So, there’s all kinds of things happening in mythology, in scriptures, and the storytelling, and the oral tradition. When it came to the third gender in India, it largely got bracketed as hijras, and they were all… I mean, growing up I saw them on street corners, begging or, you know, in sex trade because they were always, like, shunned. There was just so much going on with that community.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Even though it was an aspect of the divinity?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Right, but it was not seen like that. See? So, I decided, and I really did not really think about them so much until I started doing my own research and I started meeting them, and then I came across an activist whose name is Laxmi Narayan Tripathi and then I started reading her books, and then I started meeting more people influenced by her in that community. They go by kinnars now, and not hijras, and I’m so glad for the change in term.

But anyway, so then I was like, ‘Wait, this is a great example for me.’ And it took me several years, it didn’t happen in one year. But, every few months, what I realized is – and today I can say this with a lot of confidence, while I take on the she and her as my pronoun – while I… in the society, I move around as a woman; in the ritual space, I am truly and completely gender fluid.

Elizabeth Rovere:

So you experience that in practice?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

And that experience is not textbook. Something shifts in you. And it doesn’t shift – I guess it shifts little by little, but there is one moment in the practice when it’s almost like, you know, a light bulb goes out. And suddenly it’s like, ‘What happened?’ And then once you have experienced that, once you have experienced that kind of immediate dip into knowledge of yourself in that space, you never go back. You can never ever go back to level… whatever you were before that. You’re transformed for life.

Elizabeth Rovere: 

Yes, transformation.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

And since then, I’ve started seeing so many aspects of me that are gender fluid. And I’m increasingly becoming comfortable with that space.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s so profound to me, because you’re saying a couple of things. First of all, it’s the… you have the experience through a practice or a ritual that is that ‘embodied knowing and learning’, and it transforms you. And it’s like the most profound knowledge. Like you said, you can’t go back. It’s changed you. Everything is wired slightly differently, spiritually, physically, whatever you want to call it. And I just find that it’s fascinating, because it’s different than, ‘Oh, let me read about the latest thing on gender,’ and then I’m kind of like, ‘Well, what? Okay, that makes sense.’ It’s not the same.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

No.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You’re experiencing from inside out.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yes, and I don’t know how to explain, and I guess that’s why now I understand why experience is better expressed through poetry or through art. And I have none of those skills, like zilch.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You never know.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Okay, as of today, as of this moment, zero skills. I can’t even draw a straight line. But maybe for art you don’t need a straight line, who knows. But really it is something that changes inside of you. And it is very real, it is permanent, and you know it, and you will never forget the moment when that happens.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Is it part of the awakening?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

I would say yes. I would say yes. But I get a little scared of using the term ‘awakening’, because again, in modern West it almost always becomes synonymous to Kundalini. And the Kundalini narrative in this country, or actually in, again, modern West, has become so atypical and so myopic in nature. So awakening, enlightenment, enlightening, I find it a little tricky to use. I haven’t yet found the right term. But I would just say it’s a change.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s funny, right? Because it is something that’s not really – you need to write your poem to describe what it is and not find a word.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Some day. Yeah, I need many words to describe that. Or maybe not.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Or just a haiku. I don’t know, but there’s not really a word for it. And if you put a word on it, then someone’s going to say, like, “What are you talking about?” or “What’s this?”

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Exactly, exactly. But you know what, people who have gone through that kind of an experience, they know.

Elizabeth Rovere:

They know. Yes, they’ll recognize it’s like, ‘Oh, yes, I see, I get it.’

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yes, yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

So, I want to keep talking to you. I’m noticing a little bit of our time. But there’s still so many things to say. And, of course, as you know, we’ve just covered some. And to try to choose what to discuss with you. I mean, you know, I still find that the transformation, and looking at the life death binary, and what that transforms into, what you’ve learned from hospice patients, is a fascinating topic of conversation.

And still like the aspect of the role of women and your work on Superwomen, and the women that you’ve talked about in the cremation grounds, very fascinating. And you know what, I’m going to get in trouble with my production team if I don’t ask you about Antarctica, which people are like, “What? Antarctica?”

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yeah, what is the connection there?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Tantra in Antarctica? But you know, you did this fascinating, fascinating trip, which to me also comes on the heels of who you are and what you’ve done and what you’ve been through. And I can’t help but wonder what your life experience brought, and what was brought to you when you were down with the penguins in Antarctica.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Having been with the penguins, yeah, but this is…

Elizabeth Rovere:

Well, you just got back. You got back a month ago, right?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

No, now three weeks ago.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Three weeks ago.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yeah, I went for the penguins, but I fell in love with the seals. I think I have not seen more lazy, more fat… I know these are all very politically incorrect terms to use these days. But anyway.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I don’t think the seals will mind.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yeah, exactly. Even if they do, it’s easy to… what do they say? They say something like, “It’s easy to say sorry than…” something – “take permission versus apologize”, something like that. Okay, I’ll apologize. No, it was fascinating. So, what took me there was, again, questions about death, dying, and ritual. Death, dying rituals. Because I have come to believe that, because we’ve made death as non-dinner table conversation, we have lost all knowledge about this space.

And with that knowledge gone, there is this gigantic fear, confusion, anxiety. And then, of course, there’s sorrow. When my dad passed away, of course, I was sad. But if I didn’t have the tools I had, it would then lead to some kind of breakdowns, right? And I think we have done a great disservice to humanity by making this a non-dinner table conversation.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I agree.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

We need to normalize it. This is life. We are born, we will die. That’s it, right? I mean, it’s a joke in my family, like my daughter’s like, “Oh, I’m going to die!” I’m like, “Yeah, okay, fine, I’ll see you on the other side when I see you. I’m not coming today, but I’ll see you when I see you, right?” Like we have to normalize it. We have to make it every day.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Wait, your daughter is not dying, she’s just afraid of dying?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

No, she’s just dramatic. She’s very dramatic. It’s like that typical 19-year-old, “Oh, my God, I have so much homework I’m going to die today.” Yeah, yeah, no, not going to work. Anyway, so I believe one way to learn very fast is to look at nature. To look at what happens in nature when someone dies. What happens to birds, what happens to, in this case, say penguin, when a penguin knows it is too old to make the journey and go thousands of miles to the other side because the winter is coming, right?
What happens then? Or a chick gets eaten. What happens to the mom, right? What kind of behavior pattern, what are their rituals? And I love rituals. I think there’s a lot to be spoken about rituals. But what are those? So, it kind of started with that kind of questioning and kind of wanting to know more. And I would not really get answers, because it was like, ‘Nothing happens, they get old, and seals eat them. It’s nature.’ I’m like, okay, but you don’t… Come on, like if a chick is eaten suddenly, the mother has to feel something, right?

So, anyways… so, it started with that kind of a quest, but having been there now, I’ve never been in water wilderness before of this nature, ever, ever. And I’m still processing. But I can tell for a fact that it really… my subtle body, my elements, my five elements, got very strangely stirred up. I have never – so, I love mountain climbing, I’ve gone up to 20,500, 18,500 feet. So, I love that. So, I know what happens to my subtle body when I go on mountains.

I did not know what happens when you go on water wilderness for that long. And I can tell for a fact that something, again, has changed in me. And it is not physical. There is something at an elemental level, at a tattva level, that has shifted. And I think, again, it’ll come, I will get a better sense of it over time, but it was magical. It was…you know, there was a very different connection to the universe and the cosmos which I had never experienced before. And it is magnificent to see the icebergs, the animals. No land for days together, for hundreds of miles together. Just water and water and more water.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Frozen water.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

And frozen water.

Elizabeth Rovere:

The base of the planet.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Everything. And I think that’s another thing, right? When you go to the base of the planet, I think the gravitational force, and the magnetic force, shifts. And I know it has shifted in me. But I just don’t know. ‘What does that mean?’ right? I mean, there has to be reason. But I think the answer has not come – and I can’t be the microwave generation. I have to wait.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You have to wait, it has to unfold.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yes, yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Wow, that’s an incredible experience and story. Would you say that it was a moment of profound wonder or awe in your experience… was there?

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yes, this is a different level of wonder. I think I’ve normalized… you know, I’ve had so many of these in the past, so many atypical ones in the past, that I think it became normative. And I always like – you know, when I say the name of your podcast, Wonderstruck, I was like, ‘Was I ever struck by wonder?’, like, you know?

Elizabeth Rovere:

All that time.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Yeah, so it becomes normalized. But it became normative for me. But I think Antarctica, and it was, it is very… the shift is very real, and something has shifted in me, and I know these things happen when the time is right, the place is right, and the moment is right. And you know, these things happen for a reason. And I am truly wonderstruck right now. And I will remain wonderstruck – and that’s my promise, is to not overthink, over-analyze.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Just to be in it.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Just to enjoy it. It’s a blessing.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes, it is a blessing.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

To be wonderstruck is also an immense blessing, so I want to remain wonderstruck for some time from this experience.

Elizabeth Rovere:

May you. May we all.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

May we all.

Elizabeth Rovere:

That’s wonderful. Thank you so, so much Sravana. I can’t tell you how wonderful it is for you to be here on the podcast. I really enjoyed listening to you, asking you questions, talking to you during this time. So, thank you.

Sravana Borkataky-Varma:

Thank you.

Elizabeth Rovere:

That was Sravana Borkataky-Varma. Thank you so much, Sravana. To learn more about Sravana’s work, check out sravana.me. Please come back next time on Wonderstruck, when I’ll be talking with Radha Agrawal about community building and why she believes dance is the most healing technology that we have. For more information about Wonderstruck, our guests, and some really exciting upcoming events, check out wonderstruck.org. And please follow the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and subscribe on YouTube.

We truly want to hear from you with your feedback, reviews and ratings. You can also follow us on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok and Facebook at WonderstruckPod. Wonderstruck is produced by Wonderstruck Productions along with the teams at Baillie Newman and FreeTime Media. Special thanks to Brian O’Kelley, Eliana Eleftheriou and Travis Reece. Thank you for listening. And remember, be open to the wonder in your own life.