Radha Agrawal: The More We Participate, The More We Belong

Elizabeth Rovere:

Hello and welcome to Wonderstruck. I am your host, Elizabeth Rovere. I’m a clinical psychologist, a yoga teacher, and a graduate of Harvard Divinity School. I’m really curious about our experiences of wonder and awe, and how they transform us. My guest this time is Radha Agrawal, a visionary creator of communities and author of the book Belong. Radha is the co-founder and CEO of Daybreaker, a one-of-a-kind wellness movement and gathering of sunrise dancers that has held extraordinary events on five continents for almost half a million people, including Oprah, over the course of the last 10 years.

While integrating music, movement and community, all in a substance-free, sun-up setting, Radha has developed powerful, transformative ideas about moving past judgment toward a place of wonder, and embracing dance as a means to radical healing. She embodies the urgency of community building, and the need for intentional relationships, crucial conversations and daily celebrations. Radha’s Wonderstruck conversation really feels like an invitation to join her in a new and much-needed moment of true togetherness.

I want you to know I went to Daybreaker a couple of weeks ago in Brooklyn, and it invoked all kinds of thoughts and experiences and emotions from me. Like thoughts about joy and play, and I’m thinking about the history of ecstatic dance. It was really powerful. So, thank you so much. And I guess I wanted to start talking to you about Daybreaker, and how it’s been going for 10 years, and maybe how your perspective on community and dance has, like, changed over the last 10 years, or what have you learned, what’s surprised you?

Radha Agrawal:

Yeah, I mean, I think for me, what I learned is that dance is the most healing technology that exists on the planet. It’s the fastest way to get out of our heads and into our bodies. And, you know, in a world where one in four Americans have zero friends to confide in, and we are some of the most loneliest we’ve ever been as a human species, there is nothing more important that I can think of to do than to create community, especially right now.

And what I’ve found over the last 10 years is people are feeling so much more grateful for community post-Covid. I think there’s a sense of, ‘Wow, I didn’t realize how important it was, and it is, to be in a communal experience.’ For so long, we’ve always wanted to be alone, and travel by ourselves, and be, sort of, remote kind of workers in Bali. But I think post-Covid, people are coming back to this need and this idea of togetherness, and that we are, sort of, moving out of this space of toxic individualism, right? And back into collective consciousness.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It sounds great, I think. And I agree with you. I mean, I do feel like we are in some aspect of a crisis in that regard, because of potentially the pandemic, and you know, other things as well. But the sense of community – to me, it seems like it’s one of the things where you don’t have it, you just sort of feel like this thing that’s really bothering you and something’s missing. And then when you have it, you’re like, ‘Oh, my God, how could I have missed this? How could I have not had this?’

Radha Agrawal:

Totally. I mean, we prioritize our romantic relationships and our careers far more… over… than our friends and our communities. And for me, when I shifted that prioritization from romance and work to ‘friends first’, right? When you think of friendships in these contexts as, ‘If I have time,’ or, ‘If I can sort of get out of this work mode or dating mode.’ But if… once I, sort of, went and prioritized community as being my number one, that’s when everything changed for me.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Mm-hmm. You’re also an author, you wrote the book called Belong. And in that regard – with community – you spoke about how when you were in your thirties, you weren’t sure where you belonged. And I’m wondering about that in the context of… you know, you got out of college, you were a financial analyst and at some point, in your thirties, something inspired you, like, ‘What is going on? I’ve got to write this…’ or ‘community’s important’. I’m just curious if there was, like, a moment or what gave rise to that for you?

Radha Agrawal:

You know, it’s like when you turn 30, I think one of those things, you look at yourself in the mirror and you’re like, ‘Okay.’ You sort of do an assessment of your life, kind of, up to that point. And for me, it wasn’t sort of a major heartbreak or a big loss, it was just sort of this recognition that, ‘Wow, I’ve been sleepwalking.’

And I think many of us listening to this podcast have probably felt those same ways of, like, I’ve been sleepwalking through different periods of our lives, different chapters of our lives, where we are just kind of going through the motions and stumbling into friendships, falling into these, kind of, relationships that don’t always serve us. And we end up, kind of, being swept into these circles that aren’t fully aligned with our values and our interests and who we actually are.

And so, it was sort of this ‘Aha!’ moment of, like, ‘Wait a minute, I don’t have to just go to where I’m invited, I can actually create the community of my dreams. I can actually design and really think about, “What are the values I’m looking for in a friendship? What are the qualities I’m looking for in a friendship?”’ And when I realized that I didn’t have to wait to be invited, but I could actually create it on my own, and really paint and dream, and design it for myself, that’s when my whole life changed. And I began taking my life by own hands and, really, I would say that was the beginning of the rest of my life. That was the moment that changed everything for me.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Wow, and is that when you started writing?

Radha Agrawal:

That’s when I started – so, writing actually came well after. First, it was exercise that I did. Like, I started by doing these exercises that are actually in my book. I have about 25 exercises in my book. Sort of the first half of the book is all about going inward, and for sort of assessing where you are right now. Like, we go through seven to 10 different, sort of, transitions in our lives, right? When we leave our home for the first time, when we go to college, or if we get our first job, or when we get married, when we graduate, you know?

There’s so many. When we have children, when we retire, right? There’s all these phases in our lives where we’re, sort of, in transition. And to really do these exercises in those moments of transitions. For me it was when I turned 30, I created these exercises for myself, but now hundreds of thousands of people are doing these exercises, too, for their own transitions in their lives.

So, what I did for myself was just draw out three columns. The first thing I did was just a three-column list of, like, column one was: ‘What are the qualities I’m looking for in a friend?’ Column two: ‘What are the qualities I don’t want in a friend?’ Right? So, you have to sort of name what you don’t want, too. I don’t want shoulder shruggers; I don’t want Negative Nellies; I don’t want grandfathered-in friendships that I just kind of continue dragging along, even if they make me feel badly more often than I feel kind of uplifted.

And then, column three is sort of: ‘What are the qualities that I need to embody in order to attract the friends that I want? So, ‘How can I be less of a workaholic?’, ‘How can I be less of a cancel-culture chick?’, ‘How can I be less judgmental?’ – or whatever it is, right? So, I need to first look at myself as well, to see ‘How am I showing up?’ and ‘Why am I not attracting the friends that I really want?’ ‘Oh, wait, because I am actually putting out energy that is attracting this type of energy.’ So, I need to start shifting how I show up, too.

So, that first exercise was the beginning of this sort of journey. And, you know – anyone listening now, I bet you’ve never done that for your friendships. I bet you’ve probably done that for your professional careers, right? Like, ‘What are the exact things I’m looking for?’ in my… our professional lives, you know? ‘What are the exact things I’m looking for in my romantic relationship?’ ‘I want him to be tall’ and this and that, and be doing these things, and whatever it is – and yet we don’t do that for our friendships, right?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, it’s really true. It reminds me of when I was reading your book, about that you do talk about the soul sisters versus the mean girls.

Radha Agrawal:

Yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I was like, that’s brilliant, because mean girls are, like, judgey, you know – compare and despair.

Radha Agrawal:

Perfectionism.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Perfectionism, yes. And the soul sisters are, like, supportive…

Radha Agrawal:

Yes, yes, gratitude.

Elizabeth Rovere:

…say yes.

Radha Agrawal:

Inspiration and curiosity. Yeah, the opposite of judgment is curiosity. Instead of judging something, ask yourself first – ‘Why are you judging it?’ and get curious. Maybe you care about the thing more than you think. Or the curiosity of, you know, sort of… ‘How can I move past that judgment into a place of wonder?’ Right? We are here at Wonderstruck, right? And then the opposite of perfectionism is gratitude, right? So, instead of being, like, nitpicking what could be better – to be grateful for what’s actually working, or what you have that’s going well in your life, right?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, what do I actually have that I’m not noticing because I’m complaining about something else. I mean, look, I’m guilty of that, sure, as well at times, right? And that’s part of the reason with this importance that we’re ascribing with Wonderstruck, is that wonder is expansive, right?

Radha Agrawal:

Yes, exactly. The opposite of competition is inspiration, right? Instead of like, competition is so, sort of… creates again – yeah, like you said – like, such a myopic view of the world. Like, you’re competing with someone, it’s very adversarial. Whereas, being inspired by someone instead… right?

All of a sudden, it opens your vantage point. It opens all of your sort of space to be able to begin seeing, ‘Wow, I don’t want to compete with this person, I want to be inspired by their lives. I love what they’re doing in this world, what they’re bringing into this world. Instead of judging them or, you know, pretending I’m better than them – because I sort of deep down feel insecure – let me be inspired by them and maybe learn from them,’ right?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, it takes you more into that place of authenticity, and then it becomes a real relationship, right?

Radha Agrawal:

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And once we’re able to get underneath the judgment or underneath the one-upsmanship, or underneath the ‘I don’t want to go here because I’m better than them.’ Like, how often have you been to a party where you don’t feel like you connect with someone, and you go to the concession, you look around with a drink in your hand and you’re just judging everyone there, because you don’t feel like you belong and you’re too afraid to go…

Elizabeth Rovere:

What’s wrong with these people?

Radha Agrawal:

Right, so you’re too afraid to go speak to them, so instead you make yourself better than everybody else, right? So, all of these, kind of, things that we do to make ourselves feel better, it’s just our sense of ‘I don’t belong.’ It’s that sense of loneliness that’s taking us to these places.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, it’s our sense of ‘I don’t belong’, and like you were saying, in the research that’s coming out, one in four Americans doesn’t have a person to confide in and how we really need community. And it brings me back to Daybreaker, and how – I mean… you know, just telling you when we walked in – I didn’t know exactly… I mean, I saw pictures, I’ve read about it. I didn’t know exactly what to expect.

But it’s like, you know, there’s this incredible vibration – and then there’s people, yourself included, in costume and dancing. It’s, like, incredible. You just walk in, and you’re like, “Wow.” And then you just can’t stop moving, so you’re in the vibration and the rhythm. And you know, my husband was like, “I don’t know what to wear.” And I was like, “You can wear shorts, you can wear anything.” And so he did actually put on a button-down shirt and jeans – and everybody’s in sequins.

Radha Agrawal:

You know, the first time it’s like, ‘Wear whatever you want,’ and then the second time maybe you’ll be swept up into the thematics. Every single event has a theme. So, the one that you came to actually was ‘modern chromatic’. Maybe you missed that, I think I need to be more explicit about our mood boarding.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I did miss that.

Radha Agrawal:

Yeah, but the first time, you know, you can come as you are, just to receive the experience. And the next time, you’ll come and participate in the experience. And I talk about, you know, to really feel a sense of belonging. You know, you have to move from being an explorer to being a participant, right? And so, often we’re just exploring around the world and we feel in some ways, sort of, not connected, because we’re just exploring.

And that’s phase one. And that’s actually totally great as a first timer. But as you feel connected, as you sort of felt, like, ‘Oh, I want to do more of this,’ then the next time you’ll want to participate more. So, when you go from explorer to participant – when you begin dressing up and putting the glitter and buying the sequins, whatever it is – now you’re actively participating in showing up and inviting, sort of, that joy for other people to experience you. Then you feel even more connected to the experience, you even feel more connected to the community. So, the more we participate, the more we belong, right?

Elizabeth Rovere:

So, I mean, I love dancing. I mean, you put on music and I’m going to start tapping my foot or something. I can’t, like, go to a show, like a musical, I’m like, ‘Oh, my God, I’m moving.’ So, there’s two things there. One is that, you know, in this history of ecstatic dance, like, you have shamanistic rituals of people dancing. There’s all kinds of stories, like there’s the spider dance in Italy, where you’re dancing out and healing from your emotions. There’s, like, the ancient history of this kind of process. And you know, that we used to dance more.

And I guess I’m just wondering about it for you… within kind of looking at it from, like, more of the spiritual kind of ancient shamanistic aspect. Have you had, like, a moment in your own experience of dance where, like, something opened up that felt, like, real or surreal or unreal, or a real, kind of, deeply awe-infused kind of uncanny experience?

Radha Agrawal:

Oh, my gosh, dance is the gateway to awe. Dance is truly the gateway to awe. I can’t tell you how many experiences with the spiritual realm, sober, that I’ve had. Just allowing my hips to open, allowing – your hips actually hold so much of your tension and your stress and your anxiety, or just your traumas.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes, that’s true.

Radha Agrawal:

So, as soon as you release them, there’s a sort of, like, opening that happens in your body. And all of a sudden, you’re getting downloads left and right. And it sounds very woo-woo to say that, but I’m an Asian woman who… like, woo-woo isn’t always my thing, but these moments of ecstatic sort of dance, which – Daybreaker’s in the morning – that you get when you’re dancing under the sun, you know?

It’s so accessed under the sun, right? The vitamin D, the sort of serotonin dump that you get from being under the light. It’s unlike any form of spiritual experience I’ve had, including doing psychedelics or including doing mushrooms, or whatever it is. Because it’s… I’m dosing myself on my own body, my own movement, on my own neurochemistry, right? Through moving my body vigorously, moving my body to dance, to the beat, in reflection with other people.

You sort of get fully in flow state with an amoeba of people around you, right? So, that flow state that you feel, allowing your body to move in unison with the vibration and the energy of the room, it sweeps you out of your own head into this sort of spiritual realm. And it’s unlike any other experience I’ve ever felt.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Wow, and you’re saying more so than something like psilocybin?

Radha Agrawal:

Yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I love hearing that, because I believe that.

Radha Agrawal:

Yes, because you’re breathing, and breath work takes you there, right? When you’re breathing heavily, because you’re moving, you have endorphins firing, you have dopamine from the music, your oxytocin because you’re touching other people, if you’re, like, rubbing shoulders or you’re, like, bumping into people. The serotonin you get from being under the sunlight, and the endorphins from moving your body. Like you’re getting your entire full dose. Your dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin and endorphins. Can you believe – it spells out the word dose?

Elizabeth Rovere:

I know. I love it, it’s hilarious.

Radha Agrawal:

When I discovered this I was like, ‘Oh, my God, I can’t even believe it.’ We can dose ourselves on our own supply.

Elizabeth Rovere:

On our own internal experience.

Radha Agrawal:

That’s right.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Or our own neurochemistry.

Radha Agrawal:

That’s right.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin and endorphins.

Radha Agrawal:

Dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin and endorphins. Yes, and if we can learn how to do that, and really practice, because it takes time, right? Like, you can’t just expect to go to a Daybreaker and it happens the first time. Like, you have to really allow yourself to practice. Joy is not a given, it takes practice. Happiness and awe is not a given, it takes practice and accessing. It comes faster and faster and faster the more you practice, but there is a ramp up.

If you’re coming from a state of difficulty or trauma, give yourself time. Don’t just give up trial one: ‘Oh, I need something; I need substances.’ Like there’s a deep codependence between having fun and dancing. Having fun dancing, and drugs and alcohol, right? That we need to break that codependence first. First, access the dancer in you that’s sober – and from that sober space keep practicing, unlocking each neurochemical. And then it just happens, you can access it faster and faster. And all of a sudden you’re like, “Whoa.” You just, fwoosh, you get that whoosh faster and faster.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes, the flow state.

Radha Agrawal:

That flow state, right?

Elizabeth Rovere:

So, is that why it is sober – so that it opens the door in that way?

Radha Agrawal:

Yeah, I think we have to retrain ourselves. Because we have, again, been so societally moved to, ‘I can’t access that state unless I’m on some type of psychedelic or some type of, you know, drug or alcohol.’ Where you can absolutely… what psychedelics or drugs and alcohol do, they just heighten parts of your brain. But you can actually access that with breath work, with movement, with flow state, with mirror neurons, with just sort of an intense, immersive experience, right?

Elizabeth Rovere:

You can wake it up in yourself.

Radha Agrawal:

Yes, absolutely.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, so a question. So, what do you do with a person that feels really awkward about movement and dance? Like, how do you help someone embody?

Radha Agrawal:

Yeah, the first thing I would do is find someone on the dance floor – that you won’t tell you’re doing this – but just copy their dance moves. It’s just really fun. So, I just find someone across the room and I just watch them dancing, and I just kind of start, kind of, just doing their dance moves. And I just find different people on the dance floor and I start doing their dance moves. And from that place I start getting out of my head into my own body – and before I know it, I’m swept up into flow state. But that’s a really great trick that, you know, I’ve shared to thousands of people, and lots and lots of friends, and it works every single time.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s a great idea.

Radha Agrawal:

So, that’s one example. Another one is just through touch. So, not sexual touch, but just finding someone to just like either twirl around or just dance with or just like hold their hand for a second. Just that sense of touch and connection, participation, makes you feel like you belong, right? That oxytocin release that you feel gives you the courage and permission to just sort of like fully move.

The other, that we do with our MCs, is we do a lot of, sort of, opportunities for follow the leader. So, just giving the entire dance floor a way to move left and right, or twirl around, or hug a neighbor. We just give the community something, an action to do, so that as they’re warming up they’re just following little moments here and there. And then they’re like, ‘Alright, now I’m in it,’ you know?

So, I would say it takes about 45 minutes for a dance floor to warm up. I always say it’s… you know, there’s a moment of warming up, there’s a cold dance floor, and then there’s a hot dance floor. The dance floor is cold, you have to be patient with it. And just know that the dance floor is cold for the first, you know, while and just stick with it. Just let that first 30, 40 minutes be like a meditation for yourself.

And then all of a sudden you feel this switch on. Like, I don’t know if you felt that at Daybreaker. You just feel this, like, switch that goes off. All of a sudden you’re like, “Whoa.” Like there’s this whoosh that happens. And then all of a sudden the entire place feels like it’s moving in unison, the flow state, the energy is sort of aligned.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes, and everybody seems awake, into it. Like, people are smiling at each other, and I was just like, “Wow.” And I have to tell you, I was so impressed with the exercise that you did at the end of the Daybreaker. And you’ll have to laugh, because first of all it was just like, ‘Okay, okay, what is she going to do?’ You know, ‘I’m a clinical psychologist, I’ve been to these workshops. What are we going to do?’ You know?

And I was swept away. I was pulled into it, you know? And I don’t know if you want to share a little bit about what that was, but I was crying, and I was like, ‘I don’t want to cry, I don’t want to cry,’ you know? Actually, my husband and I were in, like, a little bit of a tense spot. We had had a fight before we came. And I was like, ‘I don’t want to look at him.’ And then all of a sudden, it was just like, ‘Poof.’ It just opened up. And I was like, ‘I love him!’

Radha Agrawal:

Oh, my goodness! And did you guys talk about it afterwards?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes, yes.

Radha Agrawal:

What came up?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Just you know, like, when was the last time we actually sat there and stared into each other’s eyes. I mean, maybe it sounds, like, kind of a funny thing, but like literally to stare and sit in sort of silence. And I married this person, I mean, I’m in love with this person. How have I not? Like, oh, my gosh, I need to see him. Have I been taking him for granted? Like, look at this wonderful person.

Radha Agrawal:

Yes. So, what she’s talking about is this eye-gazing meditation at the very end. So, imagine after a two-hour dance party – when everyone’s hearts are open, you’re sweating, you know – you’re ready to receive messages. It’s a little trick, you know? When your endorphins, like, all your neurons are firing, your amazing happy neurochemicals are firing. These are the moments when you can actually put messages in, right?

So, it’s not the beginning of a movement experience, it’s at the end, right? So, as everyone’s like warm and open and invited and dewy and juicy, right? When those moments are there, then you create these opportunities. So, I led this eye-gazing meditation, where I had everyone sit cross-legged and face each other, and then it was this five-, six-minute, kind of, initially uncomfortable moment of gazing into each other’s eyes. But the technology of the eyes; again, the gaze, the technology of the human gaze is truly the most, again, ancient technology of belonging that exists.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Absolutely.

Radha Agrawal:

But we’ve forgotten how to see each other.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Absolutely. Oh, I’m so glad you said that, because it just put shivers down my spine. It’s… you know, the gaze, and looking at each other. And it wasn’t just having partners, but you’re like, ‘Okay, look at this stranger.’ Like, looking at this other person that you’re dancing next to. And it is the antithesis, it is, to shame – because shame is downcast glance. When you raise your eyes to look at another person, you can come out of your shame, and maybe that’s why you start crying.

Radha Agrawal:

That’s right.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Like someone else sees you. It’s like, ‘Hey, I belong.’

Radha Agrawal:

That’s right. I mean, yesterday I was just listening to this podcast. A couple has a video podcast, friends of mine. It just popped up on my social. And it was husband and wife – and they couldn’t look at each other. It was deeply awkward to watch, because they were interviewing each other, but whenever they were speaking they truly couldn’t make eye contact once. It was so uncomfortable.
And so, the challenge, again, for everyone listening is to find someone – whether it’s your husband, your wife, your partner, your child – and ask them to just listen to one song with you. A beautiful song, just like a folk song, not like a dance song, but just… Like, download Patrick Watson song, To Build A Home. Listen to that song, Patrick Watson, To Build A Home. It’s a five-minute song.

And just sit cross-legged in front of someone in your life – whether it’s, again, a roommate, a partner, a friend, someone you’re struggling with, a lover, anyone, even a work colleague – and just put that song on, and close your eyes, imagine someone that you love is in front of you that made you feel like you belonged. And then after a minute of calling that person in, blink your eyes open, and look at the person in front of you. And imagine the person that made you feel like you belonged when your eyes were closed is now in front of you.

And that exercise alone is going to really put you in a place of deep connection with that person. And make sure you look in your left eye to their left eye, so you’re not kind of shifting your eyes, right? Left to right. Sometimes, we don’t know which eye to look at. Just have your left eye look at their left eye, so that you’re just holding that gaze for those five minutes. And that will take you to a really, really deep place.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You know, one of our other guests we had on the show was Dacher Keltner, and I know now that you’ve done this research with him.

Radha Agrawal:

Yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And so again, you know, Radha, you’re very fascinating to me, because you’re like,‘Okay, we’re going to do this dance party, and then we’re going to be doing this research, and look at your brain on dance.’

Radha Agrawal:

You know, it’s hard to prescribe something when it’s not measured. So, you know, what is measured can be prescribed, right? So, meditation can easily be measured. You know, walks in nature can easily be measured, right? Yoga can easily be measured. Because these are sort of fixed movements or fixed modalities. Whereas dance is sort of this redheaded stepchild, because you know, it’s like everyone moves differently, and everyone’s experience of dance is totally different.

So, we need much more sophisticated forms of measurement to be able to really measure dance so that doctors can prescribe it. And particularly collective dance, right? Dancing alone in your living room is one thing, but dancing in a communal experience where you get to see someone else move through their own kind of dances, and you get to see, ‘Oh, look, they are sort of, you know, completely comfortable with their awkward dance moves. Maybe I can be comfortable with my awkward dance moves. I don’t have to look like a professional dancer to be here. I could be exactly as I am, and move exactly the way my body wants to, and feel fully received and fully like I belong.’

And I think so often there’s this sort of sense of like ‘I can’t dance’ in this world, where actually dance is our most healing and most celebratory technology that exists. And everyone can and should dance to unlock a… unlock their bodies, unlock celebration and, sort of, come home to this idea that dance takes you to the most present state of being.

When you’re moving your body to music, which we’ve been doing for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, we are getting out of our heads into our bodies. When we meditate, we often have to actually, like, actively get out of our heads into our bodies, right? When we’re doing so many of these other, sort of, mental health modalities, we have to actually get out of our heads into our bodies. Whereas dancing, if you allow yourself to be swept up into the collective experience, you can’t help but get out of your head into your bodies, right?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Absolutely.

Radha Agrawal:

And so, there’s this opportunity for everyone to come back to the dance. And now we have these, sort of, facial recognition software capabilities that Dacher has found at UC Berkeley and Greater Good Science Center to be able to measure facial expressions before and after, when a dance floor is cold and when a dance floor is hot. So, we can see how someone’s facial expression goes from sort of serious and solemn and somber and stressed to states of euphoria and awe, right? And wonder.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Fabulous.

Radha Agrawal:

And so, we get to now, sort of, measure that and we get to now apply that so that doctors can begin prescribing not just dance, but communal dance, which is the most potent. Like, think about going to AA, right? The group therapy is, actually, far more potent than individual therapy.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I completely agree.

Radha Agrawal:

Group therapy allows you to put yourself in the frame of the dozen people in the room, so you’re able to see a dozen perspectives rather than just one-on-one, which I never fully understood one-on-one therapy. I’ve tried it now for years and years and years, and it hasn’t stuck for me. And obviously it works for millions of people, and absolutely amazing, but for someone like myself, I’m just – I don’t know, I don’t want to get stuck in my own story.

I want to know what your story is, and what your story is, and I want to know what your… so I can gain perspective, so I can say maybe my story… Maybe I’m so deep into my own story, I can’t get out of my own way, right? And so, to be able to share my story, be received and be seen in it. Of course, it’s so important to be reflected in your own struggle, in your own traumas. Of course you want to be seen in that.

And also to have a perspective of a dozen people in a room, to be able to sort of kind of reflect back to you what’s going on. I’m in a women’s circle and that has been by far the most potent mental health support for me. Because I’m receiving, you know, 10 women’s perspective every week, every other week, and I’m able to also give feedback in a way that is healing for me as well, because I’m able to participate, not just – it’s not just the therapist telling me what to do or how to think or how to be, but I’m also now participating, as I said earlier, in their recovery, in their own therapy. I get to be a therapist for them, right? So, in this action of giving and receiving, I’m able to also heal my own wounding around those things because in the teaching we often can heal too.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Absolutely. Yeah, no, I completely agree with you on that. It’s also like when you’re in a group therapy environment, too, you can see your own struggles in another person and then also you feel like, ‘Oh, I’m not alone.’

Radha Agrawal:

Yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Like, oftentimes you might not feel that with a therapist unless, to a certain extent, people may or may not share certain things about their personal experience. But traditionally, you know, I’m a clinical psychologist by profession. We’re not supposed to. And you know, we do when it makes relevant sense to do so. But I’m also a group therapist, and I love group. I love it. It’s the most alive, because you’re in a group of people, your story comes out in the moment. It’s like you’re living it.

Radha Agrawal:

Yes, exactly. So, actually I’m glad that… I didn’t even know you were a clinical therapist. I’m sorry if I insulted you.

Elizabeth Rovere:

No, no, you didn’t. You didn’t. You should hear me, I talk to my colleagues, I’m like, “Oh, my God, what are we doing with this field? This is crazy, you know?” And people can get stuck in the story individually. But the idea, right, for an individual therapist is to help you find your voice, to help you be empowered, to empower yourself, find agency. Not… I hope no one’s telling you exactly what to do, right? Because then it’s like it creates that not such a great cycle. But in group, it’s fabulous.

Radha Agrawal:

Isn’t it fabulous?

Elizabeth Rovere:

I love it.

Radha Agrawal:

And then you get to sort of facilitate the container, and it’s so safe to have, right, an actual therapist in the room. And you get to sort of continue, kind of, just sort of holding the space for that type of healing. But to allow, yeah, the collective. What has been the difference for you in group therapy and individual therapy? I’m actually curious to know.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, no, I just feel personally also more alive. I feel like there’s a group of people in the room, and I’m kind of – I’m always thinking of, ‘What are the connections, how am I bridging all these different folks. So, he’s saying that, she’s saying that, how do I bring them together?’ I’ll constantly bring them together, because when I bring them together, people elevate, they heal. Even if it’s a super-sad experience – and feeling that you can have a difficult, profound experience that’s hard in a group of people, it builds strength.

Radha Agrawal:

That’s right.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s like you’re not alone, you can handle that out in society. You’re going to be okay, you know?

Radha Agrawal:

That’s right. You know, you just gave me this idea, actually, of just couples therapy in group. Because it’s usually the individual group therapy is one piece of it. But the idea of having – like me and my husband have been looking for… you know, we’ve had multiple couples therapists just for our own kind of relational hygiene. And I just haven’t found a couples therapist that really can understand the dynamics; there’s just so many different dynamics in our relationship as colleagues and as best friends, as parents, as you know, sort of all these things.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s a lot.

Radha Agrawal:

It’s a lot. And so, the idea of having a group.

Elizabeth Rovere:

They do that.

Radha Agrawal:

They do do that?

Elizabeth Rovere:

There does exist – it’s not a lot, I mean, it’s rare – but there are a couple of people that do group couples therapy. But I mean, you could also do it as a group, just as a ‘bringing people together in a group and talking’.

Radha Agrawal:

Right. I think this is so exciting. Yeah, and it’s really cool to be thinking about community. You know, I think about community so often, as sort of one to many. It’s like, ‘How as a community mother of Daybreaker can I support the collective?’

Elizabeth Rovere:

I just keep thinking, like, Radha Agrawal, what is it that inspires you? What’s driving you, you know? How does it unfold this way? You know, does it come from your intuition? Do you have, like, a vision and a dream? You know, what inspires you? And I have to throw in my potentially psychotherapeutic questions. You know, I think about your parents being immigrants, I think about you almost being a triplet really.

Radha Agrawal:

That’s right.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You know, a twin and a sister that’s close in age. And it’s a lot to throw at you, but I’m wondering how does all of this happen for you?

Radha Agrawal:

You know, when I think of my contribution in this world, we all think about that, like, ‘What are we leaving behind?’ or, ‘What is our legacy?’ You know, for me, first of all it starts with immigrant parents, like you just mentioned. My father is from India; my mother is from Japan. They came to America knowing no one, knowing no English as well. So, they had to speak – English was their second language. They built their communities from scratch. They had to turn their backs on their families because they fell in love with each other and their parents didn’t approve – and their families didn’t approve of their marriage in the 1970s, where interracial marriage was very frowned upon.

So, they had to raise us with truly no family, right? So, they had to build family for themselves. And so, my parents were some of the best community builders. They created for themselves. My mother was my Japanese schoolteacher. My father was my Hindi schoolteacher. My mother and father started the gifted children summer camp in our community.

Elizabeth Rovere:

They did?

Radha Agrawal:

Yes, they started… my dad and my mother were my soccer coaches, for soccer in school. Growing up for 10 years, my parents were the lead and assistant soccer coaches. So, they really modeled for us the importance of community from the start, even when we didn’t have our own families, but we had such a thriving community growing up because my parents really modeled that for us. Even our birthday parties, my parents made up birthday games for us and we created these birthday parties that were really coveted – I hate to say that – but just like by our elementary school kids, and the high school kids.

My dad would make his famous fruit punch, and my mom and dad… we invented all these games that we would play as kids. And they just were so deeply committed to community, being Indian and Japanese, like community is such a deep part of their societies and both cultures. And so, I was raised very much going to Hindu temple and Japanese school, and I went to Japanese school every Saturday, Hindi school every Sunday. So, I had seven days of school growing up. So, my parents tricked us into believing every kid had seven days of school. But I was in community every single day like for my whole entire childhood.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I hear it, yep.

Radha Agrawal:

So, that was very much a part of my preliminary years. And then I think feeling the whiplash of then going to high school and college, leaving what I knew with my parents, and then moving into the twenties by myself – with my twin sister of course in New York City, but not having community and having to build it for my own – and then falling into these friendships that I, you know, idealistically thought were friends, but they all talked shit about each other and they were all competitive with each other, you know?

And then sort of like having these idealistic views having grown up in such deep community and everyone supported each other. So, having that kind of heartbreak of, like, ‘Oh wow, unless I build it for myself this is what can happen to most people.’ And I think that’s what’s happening to most people, is that we’re falling into these friendships that are not aligned.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Or just relationship or engagements, or how we interact with people.

Radha Agrawal:

Right, and we don’t know how to repair any ruptures. Like, we have one fight and it’s over, you know? We live in this cancel culture, where we have one…

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, the fragility.

Radha Agrawal:

Yeah, it’s this fragility in friendship. Like one fight and we can’t repair it.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, what is that?

Radha Agrawal:

And it’s like part of any relationship is rupture and repair. You have an argument and you talk about it, and you have a struggle and you move through it. That’s how the friendships deepen, and how you feel even more close to someone. That’s what you do with your wife and your husband, you know?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes, you have to fight with each other.

Radha Agrawal:

You have to do it with your friends, too. And so, yeah, I think that’s the biggest piece of, like, why I do what I do. It’s like, A) I felt it, but also I really believe that we all live in this way of just stumbling into friendships – we are not intentional about our friend groups – and the reason we are dealing with so much violence and anger and isolation and anxiety is because we have not been intentional about our friendships.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, I hear you. And being more intentional about our friendships really is important, and not being afraid to step on the eggshells or crack the egg, or whatever, in the process of interaction. I mean, I think it’s incredibly important. When I feel like I can’t talk, because I’m not allowed to or it’s too controversial or whatever, I’m like… I feel like I can’t be real. I can feel it physiologically. This does not feel good. I don’t want to have to live like this, you know?

Radha Agrawal:

That’s right.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Where do I have to go?

Radha Agrawal:

That’s right.

Elizabeth Rovere:

But we’re here.

Radha Agrawal:

It feels like a broken leg, right? When you feel… actually the physical feeling of feeling like you’re misunderstood, or like you don’t belong, is as painful as having a broken leg, right?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes, yes, yes.

Radha Agrawal:

It’s as harmful to your physical health, right? It’s as harmful to your physical health as being an alcoholic, and twice as harmful as obesity. When you don’t belong, right? When you focus too much on your work and climbing your way to the top, right? And you don’t have your community, it’s as painful as having a broken leg and as harmful to your physical health as being an alcoholic, and twice as harmful as obesity.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Okay, I want to also underscore that again. So, you’re quoting those statistics, and can you just tell our audience where that is actually coming from? That we’ve done… there are studies that show this.

Radha Agrawal:

Yes, so Harvard did a 75-year longitudinal study, that they followed 700 and… people over 75 years with these, kind of annual markers, where they followed them every three to five, 10 years. And, well, this is another study, but this study shared… at the end of the study – it’s still going – but continues to show that the key to a happy, healthy life is meaningful relationships, right? The key to a happy, healthy life is meaningful relationships.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s not money.

Radha Agrawal:

It’s not money, it’s not power, it’s not fame, it’s not getting the fancy car or the Rolex watch, right? It’s truly meaningful relationships. Another study done by this incredible, actual, artist who interviewed thousands of people on their deathbeds asked them – and she has a recording of all of them – asked them, “What do you regret, or what do you wish you did more of, or what do you actually consider your proudest achievement?”

And every single one of them said, “I am most proud of the friendships I had in my life. I am the most… I regret working too hard and not being, not having enough time for my friends and my family and my children.” And so, so much of that regret comes from the lack of, yeah, investing time, effort and energy in meaningful relationships.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes, yes, I’ve seen some of that with the deathbed conversions and regrets. Well, it’s really, really important. I know that Harvard study, too, because it’s like it’s been going – I mean, it’s been going on for… it’s an ongoing thing.

Radha Agrawal:

That’s right.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And even, like I remember reading that article before I was married and, like, reading it. I was like, ‘Oh, happiness doesn’t come because you got married, or happiness doesn’t come because you have to make money?’ And I was, like, I feel so much better. I feel so relieved.

Radha Agrawal:

Exactly. What do they say? They said that like, you know, anything above $75,000 a year doesn’t make you happier. If you make more than $75,000, it doesn’t make you an order of magnitude more happy, right? Because mo’ money, mo’ problems, as they say too. But it’s like your happiness is completely sort of connected to your relationships.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Your happiness is connected to your relationships.

Radha Agrawal:

Truly, right.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And we know that. We know that intuitively.

Radha Agrawal:

And yet we still focus on money, power, and fame.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Because you already know, like, the point of what you want in your life isn’t about being famous, it’s, like, ‘I want to feel close to my friends and really I want to have good relationships. I would like to facilitate good relationships.’ And it reminds me of what you said. I forget exactly where I read it, but you say that you bring community and creativity as a foundational aspect to everything that you do. It’s like a guiding principle and an anchor.

Radha Agrawal:

That’s exactly right. And it’s so interesting, you know? It’s, like, I have such a deep, wonderful group of friends. And you get to see, you know, sort of… like, as you move through, as you grow, as you build your service, as you build the sort of large community movement, who continues to stay with you along the way. And I think that to me is a real marker of someone who is – do you know what the word compersion means?

Elizabeth Rovere:

I don’t. You used it earlier. I’m glad you brought it up.

Radha Agrawal:

Yes, so compersion means someone who is happy for your success as if it’s their own, right? So, compersion is the opposite of comparison, of competition. Compersion is like, ‘Wow, Elizabeth, you have a million podcast listeners. Heck, yeah! Like, your win is my win.’ Like, ‘I feel so much joy for you.’ And the friends that have been with me on this journey of, like, explosive growth who are still, like, not envious – or feel compersion for me: those are the friends that I am like, ‘I want to be with you, I want to support you, I want to big up your projects, I want to be in service of your biggest dreams.’ Those are the friends that I feel deeply connected with.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And there is nothing more valuable in a way than that. When you just said that, and I know we’re sort of just having this – we’re engaging hypothetically, but it’s like you saying that to me, like, I feel it in my entire body. I feel a sense of warmth. It’s almost like… you know, because it’s like someone cares and feels connected to it.

Radha Agrawal:

Yes, to the success of you, your podcast, your message, your vision, your service, right? You want to bring more wonder, you want to bring more connection, you know? You’re a psychotherapist, you don’t need to do this. You’re doing this because you really want to spread more awe in a world that’s filled with – as you I’m sure experience in your day-to-day, sort of, private work – so much sadness and anxiety and depression and loneliness.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes, disconnection.

Radha Agrawal:

Disconnection, and lack of awe. So, you’re like, ‘How can I actually, right, bring more awe, and how can I…?’ So, to be seen in that and reflected in that by your friends, by those that you love and cherish, to see you and big up you and celebrate you and feel your success as their own, nothing feels better than that. If you actually are someone who is also a community person, right? Like me, I feel that in you. And we are all community people. Every single one of us. The idea of being an introvert is, actually, if you speak to a psychotherapist – which you are one, actually, we should talk about this…

Introversion, from all the psychotherapists I’ve talked to – and we can talk about this right now as well – I’ve learned that it’s just essentially childhood wounding and traumas that have not been processed. That have made you, actually, self-fulfill this prophecy that you feel more energized alone. Because you had a moment in your childhood where your parents fought and you felt more energetic alone in your bedroom; where you were sexually traumatized and so you felt more safe alone; where you were bullied as a kid, so you felt more safe alone; where you had a trauma with a friend, where you invited them over and they said no, and you then felt like, ‘Oh, my gosh, I need to wait for the invitation, so I’m introverted.’

There’s so many little things in our lives and in our childhoods that have happened to us that have pushed us into this sort of label that Carl Jung dangerously put out in the world, which is introversion. It’s a dangerous term. It is not a helpful term. We are all metaverts. And I put this in the book.

A metavert is… we all get to be at a spectrum of, ‘I love to be alone with my own company, I love to be with people. Depends on when, depends on why, depends on my cycle. It depends on the moon, it depends on my work.’ Let’s not label ourselves and pigeonhole ourselves into one set of labels that limit our sense of connection to other people. We are everything. We get to be it all, not just one thing. And so – do you agree, actually?

Elizabeth Rovere:

I agree with you. I think that, you know, Carl Jung made it very categorical, and I think that even so, like, since him there’s been people that have, sort of, been pushing at that kind of perspective.

Radha Agrawal:

Dangerous labeling.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, the labeling. And then absolutely, too, looking at experiences, I think that people… There’s much more of a fluidity to extroversion and introversion – and like you said, in certain circumstances, yes, more extroverted; in certain circumstances, more introverted and want to be alone. I mean, people are a balance of both. Sometimes, they might tend to be more of, like, people oriented, more charismatic in that way. Sometimes, perhaps a little bit more, like – even arguably – like, poetic or soft-spoken. But at the same time, we all benefit from the connection with another person or with a group, absolutely. No one’s so introverted that they’re going to sit in the room alone forever.

Radha Agrawal:

That’s right. By the way, to be introverted and to be alone – the electricity that is in your house to warm you is created by millions of people. The food that you’re eating when you’re alone is created by millions of people. The air – you know, it’s like every aspect of your life that allows you to be alone is actually supported by millions of people. So, we are never alone.

Every aspect of our lives is social. Every aspect of our existence needs to be social for our subsistence as a human species. So, for us to think we are alone is, again, a dangerous, dangerous way of living. And the labels that we put upon each other are extremely, extremely disconnecting and isolating.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes, the labels are atrocious in that way. And I think, you know, it’s like we are never alone. I mean, I’m saying this really, and I’m saying it playfully, too – it’s like, you know, it’s a very big spiritual principle.

Radha Agrawal:

Of course. That, too.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I mean, you know, we are. And I think you were saying this even earlier, too. Like, you know, we are a part of the earth. We’re just another bit of nature wandering around.

Radha Agrawal:

Exactly, yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You know, we are all interconnected. We cannot survive without each other. If you are sitting alone, you’re eating some food that maybe someone else prepared. If you bought it, you know, you bought it from someone at the store, that it is this continuity of interactions that we are a part of.

Radha Agrawal:

Exactly. So, when you say that, it’s a very selfish way of seeing yourself and the world. I really believe that. It’s a very dangerous way of existing, when you cannot see yourself as part of a bigger world. It’s when you can only see yourself – and that’s what social media is doing, and that’s what every part of advertising is perpetuating, it’s what every sort of corporation is pushing us towards. They’re marionetting all of us to believe that we are individuals, so we are buying things separately, we’re spending more money, we are more isolated, therefore we need more lawyers to be able to…

Elizabeth Rovere:

We need to feel better. We need to buy stuff to feel better.

Radha Agrawal:

Every aspect of the corporate culture in the world is preying on our loneliness, truly. And so, we’ve got to just stop that. And I really believe this is the year, 2023, where we fully actually ascend to this new way of being, that the true veil is thinning, and we are going to come back to our sense of collective consciousness. This is the year.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, it feels like there is really a movement in that direction, absolutely. I mean, certainly obviously, with the work that you’re doing, I mean, and the powerful community builder that you are – and that you’re spreading it – and thank you, that you’re doing that.

Radha Agrawal:

The biggest sort of opportunity for us is to learn how to have crucial conversations. So, my friends and I, we are so versed in it now. We call it, “Hey, can I have a quick croosh with you?” We call it a croosh. So, “Like, you know, when you did this, it really kind of, like, made me feel contraction here. And I just want to have a quick croosh to let you know that, like, I had a contraction. So, can we just unpack that? Did you mean to say that? Because the story I have in my head is this…”

Elizabeth Rovere:

Beautiful.

Radha Agrawal:

You know, that sort of thing, right? And so, those crucials have allowed for so much more depth in my friendships because of it. So, now it’s, like, become such a part of the everyday language that it’s now fun to be, like, “Let’s just go and have a walk and a croosh,” you know? A coffee and a croosh, you know?

Elizabeth Rovere:

I love that. When those kinds of things, that at first might seem difficult to talk to, then become playful.

Radha Agrawal:

Exactly.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s like, “You did that again…”

Radha Agrawal:

Right, yes. Oh, great.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Or “I felt that…”

Radha Agrawal:

I had a crucial with my friend, like, literally a year ago, and it was just the silliest croosh, but we laughed about it. But I just said, “I have a story in my head that you like my puppy more than my daughter.” And I just said, “You know, whenever you come over, you’re always playing with my puppy and not playing with my daughter, and it just makes me feel like you care…”

And he was just like, “Oh, my God, no.” We just laughed about it. And I was sort of hormonal, breastfeeding, you know, whatever. And we just… and now whenever he comes over, he’s like, “I’m playing with Soleï first, okay, for 20 minutes, and then I’m going to… If you can’t, I brought a treat for Nanü, is that okay?”

Anyway, but, like, just it’s become so part of our thing that any little contraction like that – as silly as it is – before anything builds up it’s like you just have that quick croosh, it diffuses immediately, and then you’re off to the races. It’s like the most spiritual thing we can do is to have difficult conversations with each other, and repair them, so you’re not walking around with all of these bullseye kind of like mini-minds on your body, right?

Elizabeth Rovere:

I know. I have a good phrase for you that my friend, John Vervaeke, said. We communicate in order to commune. Isn’t that good?

Radha Agrawal:

Yes, yes. We communicate in order to better commune. That’s beautiful, yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s good, it’s good. Thank you so much for being on this podcast, and we really appreciate it. And I mean, I know that the audience is going to have so, so much to experience from this and from what you’ve said. Thank you so much.

Radha Agrawal:

It’s so good to be here, and to… yeah, to just learn together.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Absolutely, yes. Thanks.

Radha Agrawal:

Thank you.

Elizabeth Rovere:

That was Radha Agrawal. Thank you so much, Radha. To learn more about Radha’s work, check out www.radhaagrawal.com, and www.daybreaker.com. Please come back next time on Wonderstruck for our season finale. I’ll be talking with Dr John Douillard about Ayurvedic medicine, healing, better breathing, and the relationship between wonder, aging, and the natural world.

For more information about Wonderstruck, our guests, and some really exciting upcoming events, check out wonderstruck.org. And please follow the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and subscribe on YouTube. We truly want to hear from you with your feedback, reviews and ratings. You can also follow us on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok and Facebook at WonderstruckPod. Wonderstruck is produced by Wonderstruck Productions along with the teams at Baillie Newman and FreeTime Media. Special thanks to Brian O’Kelley, Eliana Eleftheriou and Travis Reece. Thank you for listening. And remember, be open to the wonder in your own life.