Daniela Riva: Stomp Your Feet and Awaken

Elizabeth Rovere:

Hello and welcome to Wonderstruck. I am your host, Elizabeth Rovere. I’m a clinical psychologist, a yoga teacher, and a graduate of Harvard Divinity School. I am really curious about experiences of wonder and awe, and how they transform us. My guest on this episode is Daniela Riva. We met up last summer at Wonderstruck’s first ever symposium in Buonconvento, Italy held in partnership with Five Books and Harvard Divinity School’s Center for the Study of World Religions. Our interview is recorded on location there.

Daniela grew up in Italy, but came of age spiritually and creatively while studying temple dance and sacred movement ritual in Chennai, India. A renowned performer and teacher, her methods empower women by connecting them to a deeply rooted and transformative art form whose story of survival is one to behold. Daniela has a gift for illuminating the connections between movement and wonder between the body and its ability to generate moments of awe. She adds a beautiful layer to our series and introduces the idea that changed her life: that dance can be absolutely transportive in a path to expanding consciousness.

So, Daniela, you teach Indian temple dances, specifically bharata natyam, one of the most famous Indian classical dance styles in the world as traditionally performed by devadasi or priestesses. So, this dance form is over 2,000 years old and it’s a dance in the adoration of the divine. I find that so profound. As you explain in your book, The Sacred Dance Of The Devadasi, this devotional dance form expresses sacred content. You write, “It is a way for the dancer to discover the self and the universe to realize the union between body and soul and between the micro cosmos and the macro cosmos.” So, that’s an amazing quote. Would you open that up for me and our listeners and help us understand what that means?

Daniela Riva:

Yes, absolutely. So, Indian dance was born in the temples as a sacred art and it was born as a way to honor the divine, the deities. And the dancer becomes in this way a channel to express sacred contents, energies and feelings and emotion to communicate to the audience. And so, Indian dance is not an entertainment, it is not just a beautiful physical expression and art of India, but it’s much more than that. It’s really a way to express and communicate the divine, and it is a powerful way to connect with the audience, connect with the universe, feeling that we are a part of something bigger.

So, it’s an extremely refined art with a deep sacred sense of ritual, of devotion, of bhakti and dedication. So, it’s very interesting that with Indian dance, we train the body; there is a very intense physical training. However, at the same time we are really asked to open our heart, sharpen our minds and really connect with this something else, something bigger than us so we can channel and express and become vehicle to communicate these sacred contents.

Elizabeth Rovere:

So, what actually happens within us – in our bodies – during the dance that connects us to spirit, to the heart, to our own inner knowing? Can you describe what actually is happening there?

Daniela Riva:

So, distance is really a journey. It’s an inner journey. And of course, with cultivation, well, we are working on our body to become this refined instrument, let’s say, of the divine. And year after year, we also developed… We are pushed to certain, we can call, awakening. Awakening of energies. Awakening of the soul is really a call for the soul. And so, that’s why the training in Indian dance is so long and deep, because it takes the dancer to a deeper level: to a deeper level of knowing, of self-discovery, of knowing the body, but knowing also… And sharpen the mind and connecting the divine. Knowing and understanding or giving a meaning of what we call this, transcendental.

And so, in this sense… is really a transformational journey of self-discovery: is a push, is awakening of lot of energy and we can call them Kundalini Shakti. This incredible power, that is cultivated in the body and in the mind and in the soul. And so, it’s very transformative. It’s very powerful because it was encoded in these rituals that are coming from so far away, from so many years of tradition. So, they do carry a very strong potent force. And so, the dancer really gradually awaken to this beauty, to these riches, to this wisdom.

Elizabeth Rovere:

So, part of this journey that the dance takes you on is an awakening of this Kundalini Shakti. Well, I’m just wondering, is it possible to explain a little bit what Kundalini Shakti is. I mean, even myself, as a yoga practitioner, I have a sense, right? It’s like the energy that flows up the spinal cord and awakens, but it’s deep. It’s so much deeper than that. Could you explain it a little bit?

Daniela Riva:

Yeah, absolutely. So, first of all, we can say for our audience, for everybody, Shakti means power. Force is something that doesn’t begin and doesn’t end. Something really big is an expansion and it is in our body and outside of us. It’s an incredible power. My Indian dance teacher has a beautiful way to describe this, this Shakti. She used to tell me, Daniela, this is like current, like electricity. It’s very hard to describe electricity. How can you describe? And specifically, and especially, how can you contain electricity?

So, there is this beautiful image of the cable. So, we need the cable for electricity, so that we can have lamps and everything can be light up and work. And the cable is a beautiful symbol of the protection of this energy. We need to channel this energy. Otherwise, it is just pure energy. It’s like everywhere. It would just…

Elizabeth Rovere:

Chaotic.

Daniela Riva:

Even chaotic, can burn us. Right? So, we need this channel. We need this protection of this energy, but we also need to know how to deal with this. And so, in this sense, somehow in the Indian dance training, we learn how to – gradually, of course – channel, feel, awaken, expand, control and also use this force. And this is, of course, is a work on the body, on shaping the body. So, it’s starting from the material, from the physical, starting from just stamping the feet in the floor and opening up the body.

It’s a very intense and demanding work when we learn yoga asana, the posture. But then, of course, it’s so much more than that, because then we learn to breathe. And so, pranayama, and then we need to put dhyana – the meditation, the mind. And then there is more than that. So, we need to be open to understand what is the subtle body? And so, it’s a very gradual work on getting in touch with this energy that awakens somehow.

Also, I can say for every person is different, of course. And this is also the difficult part of describing Kundalini Shakti, because it’s such a personal journey. It’s something that for some people can just be an instant awakening, so we can talk about this serpent energy that is coming up through the spine, but for other people, it can be just like an open heart or like a vision. So, it’s really something very personal and that it takes a different time.

And maybe I can relate to myself and share my experience. When I physically felt this energy coming into my body was in the first years of my training, when I really learn how to stamp the floor, which is something that we don’t do in the western world, was something so unusual. I studied ballet and classical ballet, and so, it was… everything light. But in India, we were connecting with Mother Earth and stamping my feet on the floor and I felt so much energy rising up…

Elizabeth Rovere:

I love that.

Daniela Riva:

…through my muladhara chakra, through my spine. I was with my private dance teacher and I felt that. I just felt that, like an immense power and energy. And since then, I think really my life completely shifted from not just physically, but from all perspectives. So, mentally, spiritually, the way I could perceive things. And from there, it was all a work of cultivation and just getting to know this energy and transform and use it in a proper way.

Of course, the guidance of my wonderful Indian guru was so fundamental in all this. I completely trusted them; complete faith. And so, it was a journey that, of course, it didn’t take one weekend in worship. It took me many years of dedication and surrender.

Elizabeth Rovere:

For you, it was stomping your feet on the ground, on the earth. On Mother Earth stomping, being connected like, “I am here. I recognize you. We’re in this together.” And I love that. I’m curious about you stomping your feet and it’s like this wake-up call for you.

Daniela Riva:

Yeah, it was amazing. And that was one of the thing that first also struck me, because in India you feel this great veneration for Mother Earth. And the first thing that we do when we start a dance class, we do namaskar or Bhumi praṇāma. So, praṇāma is a salutation to Bhumi, which is the goddess of the earth. And why we are doing that, because we are taking permission and say thank you to this beautiful ground, which becomes sacred, where we can dance.

And this is also how we open a performance. So, we bless the ground. We feel that we are a part of Mother Earth. And so, we are touching the ground and symbolically taking that energy into the body. And then we start stamping and physically that… at the beginning I was this, I don’t know, I was almost shy or scared like, ‘Ohhh.’ It was very weird for me. And then, of course, you are there and then the teacher is pushing you through, “Okay, you do it.” And learning how to connect with the ground, with Mother Earth. And I felt so alive. I felt for the first time that I was a part of this incredible river. I was awakened. I was there… dancing. And that for me was incredible.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I was thinking about the beautiful paradox of this where you awaken. You feel more alive than you’ve ever felt in your life, and yet you’re barefoot and you’re surrendering.

Daniela Riva:

Yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Right? So, it’s the greatness through the heart and the surrender. Not the ego.

Daniela Riva:

Not the ego. Just you let go of everything. You let go of your beautiful shoes and your suitcase and comfort and everything. However, you are just so much nourished and uplifted and expanded. But because I think that’s the way that the Shakti flows through, the energy. Because there are not blockage, is just really feeling that these inner Shakti and outer Shakti is just… there’s no boundaries. No barriers, let’s say. It’s just the flow. It’s just very humbling. Not easy, I want to say.

Because sometimes when I describe my journey, everybody is like, “Oh, you stay in India so long. It must have been so beautiful.” Probably they portrayed me sitting on a beautiful… lot of flower and just learning this beautiful dance and wearing this… It was very challenging.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s hardcore, yeah.

Daniela Riva:

It was one of the most challenging. It was the most beautiful and the most challenging time because it was such a shift of everything transformational.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It was a shift of everything?

Daniela Riva:

In that way?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Everything.

Daniela Riva:

I was in my twenties. So, for me, I would say that was a real call, a real awakening. I think it was the first time that I was chanting under a banyan tree. I was praying. I mean, I was chanting and praying mantras, and I was going to temples, and I was learning this beautiful history of a culture that… it’s so distant from ours, but finding myself there. Finding who I am there is very interesting. So, losing myself, somehow losing who I was before, what I was used to, my idea of life, of a career maybe and just…

Elizabeth Rovere:

Of who you were supposed to be?

Daniela Riva:

Who I’m supposed to be, exactly. And then suddenly being in this completely different reality, which was so foreign and different. However, I was really finding myself. I was so uplifted and happy. Those were the happiest year, probably in my life.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Now, you were in school. You were studying ballet and in Italian dance. How did it even happen? Because now you’ve so much embraced Indian culture and dance and you know so much about the history. How did this happen? How are you called to go there? I understand you got a scholarship.

Daniela Riva:

Yeah. Well, I would say that…

Elizabeth Rovere:

How did you even know they had such dances?

Daniela Riva:

I know. I mean I’m really understanding this as grace guided me there, but it was because it was absolutely out of the blue. So, I’m from Milano. I study in university and I was working in a theater and I was always been very interested in an expressive movement in energies. So, in my dissertation was about movement with meaning, with energy. I love researching. I love researching. So, I love dancing and researching. And suddenly I ended up in a workshop in Bergamo, in Italy with an amazing Indian master.

So, this was many, many years ago. I remember was a five days workshop and this incredible master, it was another dance style. It was Odissi, however similar to bharata natyam. We tried a posture, we tried few mudras and I completely fell in love.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Oh, wow.

Daniela Riva:

It was just love. I cannot explain rationally. So, I ran to the teacher at the end of the class and I told her, “Listen, I really want to study this dance. I love it.” And she told me, “Yes, yes, you can study here.” And I said, “No, no, no, no, no. I want to go to India and study this dance.” And in that moment in my heart, I decided that I need to go to India and study this dance. I know it sounds like…

Elizabeth Rovere:

No, it’s great. It’s completely clear.

Daniela Riva:

It was just so clear.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s like, ‘I know.’

Daniela Riva:

I was 25 or something.

Elizabeth Rovere:

That’s incredible.

Daniela Riva:

It was just so clear that that was something that I needed to do. So, I went to my professor in university and told him the story and say, “Listen, I need to go to India and research on Indian dance.” He was very supportive, actually. And just quite quickly, I wrote a project; I won a scholarship, which was really out of the blue because again, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Italy and the Indian government; and suddenly, I got accepted in this incredible… in the best academy of Indian dance.

But I mean, my family didn’t have any yoga background. I never been to India before. I never did yoga before. I was totally new to everything. So, I have my backpack and my beautiful shoes from Milano. I’m in this taxi with all the noise and all this craziness of India. And I’m thinking, ‘Oh my gosh.’ And what was one-year research scholarship became my life, basically.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Became my life.

Daniela Riva:

Yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Wow. That’s incredible. I believe that. I think it’s a beautiful story. So, I love hearing it. I do want to go back to the one thing. We talked about it. And I can imagine, but I also was wondering if you would share about the challenges. So, I can imagine jumping into a different world in that way. But perhaps could you just tell us what maybe was the most challenging or one of the major challenges for you?

Daniela Riva:

Yeah, absolutely. So, well, at the beginning, adapting to this new reality – and especially the climate, South India is very warm, very hot, and especially very humid. And also keeping myself healthy in that climate. And so, I needed to learn what to cook, how to cook. It was all a process of observing them and eating like them at the same time, in the same way.

At the beginning, I didn’t even know what to eat because it was just so different. My body had to really get used to all these. And second was the intensity of the training. It was so challenging. I mean, it was beautiful. But the first years, I would train from 8am to 4pm: Indian dance, Sanskrit, music, a vocal religious study, yoga, of course, everything. And then I would take also private class, because it was difficult for me as a western to… I needed to understand. The pedagogy is very different in India.

And for them, it’s just so natural to chant mantras and do this beautiful gesture. And for me, it was hell. It was so difficult. And no iPhone, no iPod, no books. I went to the teacher and say, “Hey, can I have a… books just to keep up with all these?” And they laugh at me. “No, no, no, no. You just do it. You have to repeat it.”

Elizabeth Rovere:

Oh, wow.

Daniela Riva:

And so, learning Sanskrit just by repetition and just by observance.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Wow.

Daniela Riva:

The first year it was super demanding for my body, my mind.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Looks like you’re using everything. You’re using your whole body.

Daniela Riva:

Whole body.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You’re singing, you’re dancing, you’re thinking, you’re repeating. You are not writing anything down. You’re not reading.

Daniela Riva:

Exactly. And that’s really the challenge for me. However, it was so rewarding, because for example, at the beginning there were this very long choreography with mudra. My mind would say, I will never get this. But then, with the guidance of the teacher, now I can learn and repeat 20 minutes of choreography just like this easily.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Wow.

Daniela Riva:

It’s so incredible how you can overcome your own mind. So, many, many challenges, however, support all the teachers and inside of me, like a string and a faith that that’s what I…

Elizabeth Rovere:

This is what you’re meant to do.

Daniela Riva:

Yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Well, it’s like you’re overcoming your cultural and childhood conditioning, right?

Daniela Riva:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Rovere:

As a psychologist, I think about that all the time. It’s like people are like, “Am I ever going to get better? How can I get beyond it?” But it’s like, ‘We have this very deep conditioning. But it’s not the truth of who we are.’ And you’re showing how you overcome it. And yet then you also have this awakening experience.

Daniela Riva:

Exactly.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And the process.

Daniela Riva:

You find yourself.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You find yourself. As opposed to what your condition… supposed to be or do.

Daniela Riva:

Exactly. Yeah.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Now, you studied other dance forms from your culture, from Italian culture. How did you learn about these greater potentialities and capabilities? Was it through the Indian traditions?

Daniela Riva:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this all came while learning Indian dance. It was just putting one piece after the other. And so, I started studying yoga because it was helpful for my dance. And then find a connection. And then Ayurveda came in and then I find it so fascinating and find a connection with Indian dance and nourish and expand. It was just being in India and starting there with masters, with teachers that I developed this.

But also, I would say, what was key was coming back to the western country – because at the end, I am Italian – and finding a way to deliver this content in a pure, authentic way, but in a way that would be digestible to people. And so, that was my part of creativity and service, let’s say, that also pushed me to understand, ‘Okay, what worked for me? What was so important for me? How can I deliver this to women and that can be relevant to a contemporary woman?’

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes.

Daniela Riva:

Right? And so, that question: my students somehow pushed me to refine and research and find it – why and how to deliver this disempowerment, this Shakti. So, finding the way that I could be a channel, and so that could be helpful as a support and as a nourishment, and not just, again, like something, ‘Okay, I just want to learn another dance style.’ But something that was more deep and profound. So, also that was the key that helped me to… or pushed me to get in contact with the goddesses and with the why and with this aspect of empowerment.

Elizabeth Rovere:

In the dancing, you also talk about how… Of course, it’s about awakening the sacred and adoring the sacred, and that there’s also a way that this involves the audience and the experience of the audience having a sacred type of experience as well, which makes me think of the greater community.

Daniela Riva:

Yes, absolutely.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Can you describe what that means?

Daniela Riva:

One of the goal of the dancer in Indian classical dance is to communicate. So, there is a term that we use, which is abhinaya, which is the art of communication. So, there is an abhinaya, a communication with the body, with the eyes, with hand gestures, of course, and with feelings, with emotion. And the ultimate goal of the dancer is not just to perform something beautiful and refined and expressive, but it’s to communicate that, and to reach the audience – and to touch their soul and create this sort of magic, we can call it. But we call it very precisely in India, a rasa, a flavor that is developing between the dancer and the audience.

So, the audience is a community that is there, that is a part of the performance. So, it is a part of this devotional, ritualistic aspect, which of course, dates back in the old times in the temples of India. Now, it’s different, but still people go to temples to sing and dance. Even in the theater, there is a very important aspect of communicate: of touching the heart of the audience, of just being together in this divine essence. Right?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah. There’s two things that strike me about that that stand out. One is that I have this incredible quote that I found when I was trying to read about you and your work. And I have to just read it ’cause I feel like it’s describing what you’re talking about. And then the other is… So, name of this dance – bharata natyam. So Bharata was this sage or priest from, what, 2,000 years ago or so?

Daniela Riva:

Very ancient.

Elizabeth Rovere:

So ancient, right? Which this dance comes from, right?

Daniela Riva:

Yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Was revealed to this person, Bharata, who then developed this… this theory of rasa or flavor of aesthetics that… this beautiful, which – inherently the aesthetics was combined with the sacred.

Daniela Riva:

Yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

So, that’s one piece. So, this is why then I have to read this from this quote. So, “Entertainment is a desired effect of performance art, but not the primary goal.” So, entertainment, that’s great. But what’s the goal? “The primary goal is to transport the audience to another parallel reality full of wonder and bliss, where they experience the essence or the rasa of their own consciousness and reflect on spiritual and moral questions.”

Daniela Riva:

Absolutely.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I mean, hello. That’s amazing.

Daniela Riva:

Yes. And that’s Indian dance. So, Indian dance sometimes is called one of the fifth Veda.

Elizabeth Rovere:

That’s so interesting. Tell us what the Veda is.

Daniela Riva:

Right. So, the Vedas are this very ancient text. They are the base of old Indian culture and philosophy. They are four. And they believe, there is a very strong belief that these books, they’re giving us so much wisdom and knowledge of life, they are coming directly from the divine. So, Indian dance is considering this sense a fifth Veda, because we consider that dance has been delivered directly from the god, from the goddesses to the humanity: to bring longevity, beauty, awakening consciousness.

So, the mythological, let’s say, origin of Indian dances really believed being something gifted – gifted from something, from someone beyond, is transcendental. And so, that’s why the power of the rasa and this theory, because it really transport us into another dimension.

Elizabeth Rovere:

That’s beautiful. I think about that, too, with the way you talk about it with dance or as the fifth, this particular variation… Or the sacred dance as a fifth Veda of this, kind of, knowledge – way of being – like, given as a form of… to awaken and awakening as being fully yourself and being healthy. And so, I’m curious how that connects with Ayurveda, but I’m also thinking of how dance and performance will awaken a lot of emotional aspects and how even the word emotion has the word. It’s motion. It’s movement. And we always talk about, “Oh, I’m stuck in my emotions” or “I’m depressed.” And it’s like, ‘How about getting these emotions to move?’ Isn’t that why dance and yoga are so healthy for you?

Daniela Riva:

Absolutely, yes. And they’re so connected. Also, you were mentioning Ayurveda, and Indian dance is, in this sense, is a lifestyle. It’s a lifestyle. It’s this beautiful art and science of living. So, it’s again, not just an entertainment, it’s not a performance, but it transform you to the core, that then you live completely in a different way. You eat in a different way. You breathe in a different way. You see things and you interact with other people with a different point of view. And so, of course, there is a life, is a wisdom. It is a wisdom.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s a wisdom.

Daniela Riva:

That is really a gift, is a gift to the humanity, and it’s so healing. And so, yoga is not just gymnastic, of course, right? So, in the same way Indian dance is not just entertainment. And Indian dance, yoga and Ayurveda in my – this is one of my strongest point and vision – they go hand with hand.

This was really something that I’ve been developing in the last year. I personally cannot see this discipline separated. They just help compliment, support, uplift each other. There are different branches, but they are all ultimately directed to the goal of self-discovery, evolution, progression and awareness, and connection with the divine and transformation.

So, it’s a very beautiful conscious way of living life through the body and unblocking emotion and transforming, and changing. They are absolutely connected, not just for a simple wellbeing, but for more, for realization of who we are, of a meaning, of a purpose, of our essence – what we are here for.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah. You’re stamping on the ground. You’re having… you’re coming into your fullness of who you are, right?

Daniela Riva:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You’re having that kind of awakening with a big A or a little a, right? You’re feeling more integrated as a human being. So, you actually feel more connected to everybody that you’re sitting here, that’s within this room, that’s within this space, that’s within this country. You’re feeling interconnected to humanity. And the planet and to the animals and to the little ant that’s walking across the floor or what the sunset. Everything feels more precious.

Daniela Riva:

Absolutely. Everything has a meaning. And that’s so powerful. And you realize that we are all connected and we are all one. And this is really a reality that is so clear when you dance, when you practice Indian dance. And in this sense, community has been really so important. And for me, it was interesting because I started this journey quite lonely, alone, let’s say. I just, again, came from Milano and I didn’t know anybody. I thought I was quite weird. Okay, what’s wrong with me?

However, then – with ears – I really met so many interesting people and I found my tribe. I found the people that were really resonating with what I loved. And then I felt so protected. It was so meaningful for me because I found my place in the world. I wasn’t anymore that strange dancer in Milano trying to research on India. But I was really finding a place that was important for me, a realization. And then also, this became my job, which I didn’t mean, but then people start asking me, “Okay. Can you write about this?” or “Can you teach me?”

And so, this became my life without really planning that. And so, in this sense has been building community, building family, building a life, right around all this.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah. I love how that it just comes to be. It unfolds because you found what you were meant to do and what you were here, what you’re here for in that way. It just starts happening. It just flows. It flows, which is fantastic. I’ve seen you dance, even if it was just a small snippet, but it’s beautiful. It gave me chills down my spine to watch you at our Symposium this year. I mean, it was just spectacular. And I know a lot of the participants also just loved it.

Daniela Riva:

I love that. After the performance at the Symposium, each of every participant came to me with a different comment or experience, or… not just being grateful, but really telling me something very meaningful for them that was moved for different reason: maybe for the gesture or maybe just because of certain expression or maybe something that reminded of their experience. It’s just so rewarding for me to see how touches in different ways, everybody. And because I know it does on me, it is just beautiful, then, to experience that together in a different way and share that.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Now, I have to slightly change the topic for a second because I feel like if we don’t touch upon this, I’ll feel like we’ve avoided it and I don’t want to do that. But the history of temple dancing and the devadasi is interesting because it feels like it was in this realm of, ‘Okay. The women are experiencing these sacred texts and dance and, like, high priestess kind of phenomenon.’ And then it went into this place where it was like you described in your book; this place of ‘high majesty’, in a way, to misery during a period of time.

And then now my sense, from what you’re doing, is that you’re bringing it back to a better place and reclaiming it for women’s empowerment. So, I’m curious if you would just speak about that a little bit, because there was kind of like this dark place.

Daniela Riva:

Yeah, absolutely. It’s a very intriguing history. And so, just briefly, devadasi were these women dedicated to the life, to the temple, dedicated to the art and to the activities of the temple, and learning dance and music and Sanskrit and all these deep studies. So, it is a very interesting and controversial, also, subject. And first of all, I have to say, I find it very, very hard to find material, even in India, in the philosophical society, in Kalakshetra Library interviewing my dance teacher, because it’s still very new. It’s still very new, and it is still a little bit, I wouldn’t say taboo, but it’s a very delicate subject.

These younger were dedicated to the life of the temple. And so, we always have to be very aware of what is the context of India, and not thinking, “Okay. This girl that didn’t have their freedom and their choices.” So, we really don’t have to have these judgments on what happened. But just being aware of the importance of the heritage of these priestesses, this group of women that they were practicing in the temple, they were cultivated in these very skillful arts and this was a lot about cultivating, for example – also, the Kundalini Shakti and doing very advanced yogini practices, mantra, mudras.

They were very advanced in their knowledge and dance because their life was just completely dedicated to them – not cooking, not taking care of a house, which in India it’s just…

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes, the householder.

Daniela Riva:

Right. I mean, that was the way that women could somehow just get educated and maintain that, let’s say, independence. And so, it’s very important that to know that this happened in India, this is a very great heritage. A certain point where 400 devadasi in the Thanjavur temple living there. And so, means all these women dancing and keeping the energy, and doing rituals and puja, and really cultivating this wisdom from the past, right?

The story is so interesting because this was so powerful. Of course, this power got shut down especially when the… Britain came and colonized India, because they thought these were too sensual or just too powerful. And so, they abolished completely the system of the devadasi. They were outcast. It was forbidden to dance in the temple because, of course, they were trying to control what was the tradition of India.

Of course, there are so many layers here, but I’m just going briefly to say that this dancer that they were so splendor and living in richness, beautiful saris and dedicated to the temple; during the colonization time, they were absolutely shut down and, so, decayed. Also, many of these women were taken out of the temple and so, prostitution was one of the problem in which they fell. And so, the system completely collapsed.

That’s why when we maybe Google or look up the term devadasi, we encounter this prostitution, this term. So, it’s still very controversial and still not very well studied, let’s say. However, recently, finally, what is happening is that the scholars, and also dancer, are really reevaluating what was the heritage, what these women, this priestess were doing in the temple – and revival, this power, and this happens, for example, when Rukmini Devi… So, with the end of colonization decided to give new splendor to the tradition of India. There was a big movement.

When the colonization finished, there was a big movement of trying to bring back the traditions of India. All the rituals, all the beauty that was a little bit lost and hidden during this time.

Elizabeth Rovere:

The… when it was under… being control…

Daniela Riva:

Under control. Under the Victorian…

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, the Victorian aspect. It’s so interesting, too. It’s like that way in which… It’s like the fear. It’s always like, “The women are out of control.”

Daniela Riva:

Exactly.

Elizabeth Rovere:

The sensuality. It’s like, but it…

Daniela Riva:

Too sensual, too powerful.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Too powerful.

Daniela Riva:

These women were very powerful. They just hold the Shakti. I mean, I’m not just talking about…

Elizabeth Rovere:

Holding the Shakti.

Daniela Riva:

Not money. I mean, at certain point, they also own lot of land and money and power, let’s say rituals. So, from outside they saw it. They say, “Oh, no, no, no. This is too sensual. It’s too much.” And so, they just try to cut it down. But as I said, Shakti is current and find a way.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Finds a way. Finds a way to rise.

Daniela Riva:

To rise. And so, it came back.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I love that.

Daniela Riva:

Yes. It came back through this figure that restore, somehow, this ancient temple dance. Of course, in a different way, because then there wasn’t anymore the idea of going to the temple to study. So, there were academy. There were dance school. There was a teacher. There was a sort of system, like a new protection, new cable, that was containing this Shakti and it was presented as an art form.

And so, it became a classical art form. It’s a little bit different. We can ask ourselves what is lost in transition. However, what I really believe is that the power of the rituals in the temples of India is still there in this classical dance. We can’t deny that.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Right.

Daniela Riva:

And even now, scholars are saying, “Yes, the heritage of the devadasi, it was so important because that’s where Indian classical dance come from. And that’s why Indian classical dance is so powerful and empowering, especially for women. I swear when I say this story to my students, in California or everywhere in the world, the blood of women start boiling. And there is really a recognition of this Shakti, of this energy because we feel like, “Hey, why do they try to repress this.” Let’s get it back?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Like you said, they can’t repress it because the Shakti is fluid and always finds a way. It comes out through the dance, which is so healing.

Daniela Riva:

It comes out. Absolutely.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And I love that. It brings me back to that idea of the movement of emotion and moving it, and that it always will… it’s always looking for a way up. The body is always looking for a way to heal. The energy is always looking to be fulfilled, to awaken.

Daniela Riva:

This dance is very transformative and very healing. And even though women don’t want, maybe, to become a dancer, when they come and experience, they immediately remember. Feel, and remember this power. And this was something that I start noticing while I was teaching, that I had women coming to me. And then I noticed that they didn’t really want to just become a dancer. They were intrigued by the dance type, but there was something happening.

So, they would start crying suddenly or just changing their life. So many things were happening in my dance class and I was becoming even more aware of the power that was encoded in this movement that would just come out. I couldn’t control that. And so, that’s why my last years, I really focus on women empowerment because… through Indian dance and yogini practice, because I feel this is a great vehicle for women to find their Shakti, to awaken their energy, to express, to communicate something that is maybe stuck. And it’s really a yogic experience.

Elizabeth Rovere:

So, we were just talking about women’s empowerment. We were talking about how women feel uncomfortable with their bodies, or people in general. It’s not just women, but we feel like, ‘Oh, I can’t do that yoga pose’ or ‘I can’t do that dance movement.’ ‘I have this knee problem’ or ‘I’m not coordinated.’ And we just do ourselves a disservice. You were talking about a lot of your dance classes are about empowering people to say, “You know what, you’d be surprised of what you can do,” because some of it is about not feeling empowered. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that work that you do with women.

Daniela Riva:

Yeah. It’s so interesting when women come and, at the beginning, one of the first thing that they say is that, “My body is not enough. I’m not enough” or “I don’t have time” or “I will never get this.” And of course, there’s a mind limitation and a self-judgment. Of course, all this pressure of the society and all pressure. But then with the guide and support, and also with the support maybe of other women with the group, they try. And first of all, they feel surprised and they’re being carried away in this beautiful word of the priestesses. They just forget about all these, let’s say bullshit or…

Elizabeth Rovere:

Just sticking that, forget about the bullshit.

Daniela Riva:

Forget about that and just dance. And they really feel like a priestess. And then they gain self-confidence and they really empower themself. So, in the last years, I tried to develop this work related to women empowerment and the goddesses of India, because these are really incredible models for us, archetypes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Archetypes.

Daniela Riva:

To relate to. And so, for example, Saraswati is the goddess of wisdom and creativity and communication. And she’s water. So, I create a sequence sometimes, a very simple sequence with mudra original, because I try to maintain the mantras and explain the tradition, however, something that can be accessible to women.

Elizabeth Rovere:

So, the mantras and the mudras. So, the mantra is the sound or the chanting, and the mudra is the hand gesture.

Daniela Riva:

Hand gesture.

Elizabeth Rovere:

That represents Saraswati.

Daniela Riva:

Exactly.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Or a goddess in the dance.

Daniela Riva:

Exactly.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Okay.

Daniela Riva:

And you can dance her. So, you can invoke her or call her through your body.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Love it.

Daniela Riva:

And feel their energy. And awaken and connect with that archetype.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Beautiful.

Daniela Riva:

And so, suddenly women feel like, ‘Oh, my God, I just felt my creativity was so shut down.’ Or in my course they say, “Usually I’m so shy, but I feel like I want to speak.” And then, “I always wear black, but I want to wear white,” which is the color of Saraswati, for example. And on the other side, sometimes I present Durga, who is the fierce goddess riding the lion and really representing the inner power, the capability of overcome inner demons. Oh, my gosh, she’s so loved. Also, how… also difficult, sometimes, for women to – men also – to just get into aspect of fierceness, of being ferocious in a healthy way. Focused and clear. And so, stamping on the floor again and learning the Durga mantra, the mudras that are embodied in Durga and feeling in the body, calling that energy and suddenly really feeling liberated or connecting with this energy. And so many things happen because it’s, again, an embodiment of something bigger.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s an embodiment of something bigger than yourself, but that it’s awakening that inside of yourself. It’s working with these archetypes.

Daniela Riva:

Absolutely.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And I love that. I love that the archetype of fierceness has manifested in Durga or Kali.

Daniela Riva:

Yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And becoming that – where it’s like instead of fierceness as something that should be afraid of, or shunned, but it’s transformed into a certain power.

Daniela Riva:

Absolutely. Seen that and dance it in the body.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And dance it in the body.

Daniela Riva:

And Kali, for example, again – one of the most misunderstood goddess in the Indian tradition – is when I present the course on Kali, she is adored and so needed. Women are, like, shaken because Kali cuts the ego and she’s sticking her tongue out. She’s not pleasing. No, she’s not just sitting on a lotus flower, but she is pretty intense. But that intensity, that fierceness, that strand, that inner capability of cutting the ego is so needed. And especially for women. And so, is not just that wildness and misunderstood the witch or the bitch. No, it’s just that healthy fierceness of the person.

Elizabeth Rovere:

The fierceness of cutting the ego.

Daniela Riva:

Yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And it’s so funny that the true power… I mean, there’s this quote, “True power is to empower.” And true power is… to cut the ego. Isn’t that funny? You’re more powerful from the heart than you are from the ego.

Daniela Riva:

Absolutely.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And we’re so scared of it as a culture.

Daniela Riva:

Yeah, absolutely. Very scared, especially in the western country. While in India – which is a very ancient culture and so related still with Mother Earth and with the feminine in a deep sense – is telling this is part of life. And Kali is the timeless death.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Kali is timeless death?

Daniela Riva:

Yeah. Kali means time, and also the color black, and also represents the death. So, the death of the ego, but also the death of our body. Kali’s awakening to the fact that, at certain point, we’re going to die. And so, just be aware that this is your opportunity to evolve and to live, and to live fully. And so, carrying the ego, and just every moment is so precious.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Be aware that this is your opportunity to live fully and be able to channel that kind of fierceness and power in a way that’s constructive.

Daniela Riva:

Yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I mean, I think about that because I’m a psychologist by profession and that clients and people – and people close to me, myself included – we struggle with ‘What do we do with our anger?’ And if we can channel it into something that’s productive and not disavow it, like, ‘Oh, God forbid, you should have anger.’ It’s like, ‘Of course you have anger. You’re human. Use it. Use it wisely.’

Daniela Riva:

To transform.

Elizabeth Rovere:

To transform.

Daniela Riva:

And see as opportunity. But don’t deny that. That’s one of the… It is like the Shakti when we were talking about the devadasi, know and suppress. No, we cannot shut them down. We cannot shame that. We need to see. We need to channel in a proper way, and we need to transform and use it for evolution, for something positive, for an opportunity.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Exactly.

Daniela Riva:

And it takes great courage, I think.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Well, it takes great courage because it’s just, as you said, we feel shame. And if we shame it, we’re stuck. We’ve got to move out of it and acknowledge it and own it. I mean, you say that in your book, I think that this form of dance or yoga is an aspect of this dance. Some of the postures are similar?

Daniela Riva:

Yes. Absolutely.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Is that accurate to say yoga is moving, but also some of the asana.

Daniela Riva:

Absolutely true. The practice, we cultivate our inner cell: we awaken, we transform. And so, sometimes I feel Indian dance is a feminine yoga. It’s very interesting how many women are coming to this class because they’re interesting to the spiritual awakening and true movement. And in the process of transformation and getting support through that and getting nourishment.

Elizabeth Rovere:

So, we’ve talked about the soul and the spirit, but just also in regard to the physical body and physical health. How does it help you physically on just a very basic, literal level?

Daniela Riva:

Yes, absolutely. So, first of all, it helps to balance the wellness of bodies. Just the movement is a very vigorous and healthy movement. And in this sense, I have to say that during the years I’ve been a bridge and trying to maintain the essence and the purity of the teaching. I also developed exercises and practices that could be of a fit of our western mind and body. And usually these sequences – with the music and just stepping into the sacred space – help, really, people to feel the body, to get in harmony, harmonize, and also to release the mind from worries and preoccupation. Just get present, get into the sacred space, and then more deeply connecting to the soul.

So, we set an intention, for example, for every dance class when we salute Mother Earth. And so, it’s a moment that women especially can dedicate to themself and get that nourishment and stop all the activities, all the doing, doing, doing. And just doing something for themself, being, and then just get the joy, the pleasure. Being, again, transported in another dimension of the priestess feeling like a priestess.

All the day, you feel like, ‘Oh, I have to work, I have to do this, I have to pay my bills, and my children and this and that.’ And so, it’s a lot of preoccupation. And then Indian dance, ‘Let’s surrender. Let’s be carried by Mother Earth and heal yourself and nourish.’ And then you can go out in the world and do all the things that you need to do. But take this hour just for yourself, for your sacred, your hridaya – your heart, your temple, your inner temple.

I think in this way we cultivate wellbeing, but also the sanity of our mind. Also, we find a purpose. In every class, we try to understand, ‘Okay, what I need in this time of my life, what I need now.’ Right?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, as you’re saying that, and my mind goes back to… yeah. So, it goes back to that main thing, again, about being the priestess and yet surrender… the surrender on the way to the earth as being the priestess. And then finding that inner sense of joy is the cultivation of the fountain of youth, if you will, or health. Or being alive in the body.

Daniela Riva:

Exactly.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s through joy.

Daniela Riva:

It’s through joy.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I mean, I don’t need to go buy face cream, I just need to find joy.

Daniela Riva:

Yes, exactly.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I don’t need to do 20,000 crunches; I need to just go dance about.

Daniela Riva:

Yes, exactly. And then you find your sovereignty. I mean, you really are the queen of the temple.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I love it. That’s great.

That was Daniela Riva. Thank you so much, Daniela. To learn more about Daniela’s work, teachings and upcoming workshops, please visit danielariva.com. Please come back next time on Wonderstruck, recorded on location at last summer’s Embodiment Symposium in Buonconvento, Italy. My guest will be John Vervaeke, a University of Toronto professor specializing in perception, cognition, and cognitive neuroscience, and creator of the 51-part hit YouTube series, Awakening From The Meaning Crisis.

For more information about Wonderstruck, our guests, and some really exciting upcoming events, check out wonderstruck.org and please follow the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and subscribe on YouTube. We truly want to hear from you with your feedback, reviews and ratings. You can also follow us on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok and Facebook at WonderstruckPod.

Wonderstruck is produced by Wonderstruck Productions along with the teams at Baillie Newman and FreeTime Media. Special thanks to Brian O’Kelley, Eliana Eleftheriou and Travis Reece. Thank you for listening. And remember, be open to the wonder in your own life.