Fearne Cotton: Fire, Flowers and Prayers for the Sea

Elizabeth Rovere:

Hello and welcome to Wonderstruck. I am your host, Elizabeth Rovere. I’m a clinical psychologist, a yoga teacher, and a graduate of Harvard Divinity School. I’m really curious about our experiences of wonder and awe and how they transform us. My guest on our debut episode is Fearne Cotton. Fearne is an iconic London-based television and radio presenter, a bestselling author, and an award-winning podcast host. As Fearne reveals, she has a long and fascinating history with exploring and expanding her own consciousness, while opening doors for others to reflect publicly and profoundly on critical topics such as mental health, self-discovery, intuition and empowerment.

So, listen in as Fearne opens up to our new Wonderstruck community – that’s you – about using ancient wisdom to solve modern problems, shedding the skepticism and self-doubt that inhibits personal growth, and how to unlock trapped energy by writing a letter and lighting it on fire. We’re really, really so thrilled to have you here. Thank you so much. I’ve been listening to your voice and it’s nice to see you and hear you in person.

Fearne Cotton:

And I’m so glad that we can do podcasting face-to-face now, because I was really bored of Zoom. There’s nothing like actually being with someone and sensing what’s really going on with them, and you can’t get the full picture on Zoom.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You really do miss that in-person experience. I’m trained as a clinical psychologist and it was hard to do things on Zoom, like working with a client or running a group. Because you just can’t see everything that’s really happening. So, you have said that writing your most recent book, Bigger Than Us, changed your life. As the title implies, the book is about recognizing that we are, as you have said, a small dot within a small dot in this vast universe. So much is bigger than we are and it’s all very humbling. You mentioned how to connect to ‘that which is greater’ through prayer, a ritual, ceremony or by engaging the intuition. And you’ve said this has led to self-discovery, empowerment, and a greater sense of freedom and wellbeing. So, such practice is not often easy, but it’s extremely powerful and rewarding. Would you be willing to talk about some challenges you encountered while embracing prayer and ritual and ceremony, and so forth?

Fearne Cotton:

Of course, it was probably the most fascinating process to write that book. And part of that was the timing, because we were in the pandemic. But also, I was approaching my 40th birthday, so I was sort of quite reflective naturally anyway and looking back on what had been, and why certain things had happened. And then looking at my own behavior and having that sort of awareness, how much of my own… whether they’re flaws or stumbling blocks in life, having formed how I am today, who I am today, what I’m doing today. I’m being really accountable for as much as I could. I could sort of sense, approaching my 40^th, that I knew I was trapping myself in some ways and I was sort of limiting my experiences of life in some ways, my connection with other people in certain dynamics. And I was like, ‘What is that? Why am I doing that? Why am I capping my joy, or whatever it is?’

And I think it’s different for everybody. For me, it was certainly there was some sort of weird guilt in there about really enjoying myself, and an element of not believing I deserved certain good outcomes and good things in life. And there was a whole host of other moments of confusion in that reflection. And I kind of knew, for years and years, the way to tackle that stuff is looking to things that have been around forever. So, looking into some esoteric practices, and theories or books, whatever it might be. So, I went about contacting a few people that I already knew and had sort of dynamics with shamans, thought leaders, all sorts of different people from different walks of life. And then some I met, weirdly, through the process of writing the book. These people kept just landing in my life at the right time.

Like, ‘Oh, why is this person showing up?’ It was so weird and serendipitous at times. I think one of the most powerful chapters to write or certainly themes to explore, was the ritual and ceremony chapter. Because I never really tapped into that properly. I’m from a regular working-class family in the UK, not religious in any sense. Obviously in the UK we don’t have as many, I don’t know, historic rituals still around today, sadly. I mean, obviously there were loads of amazing rituals and ceremonies and practices – that even sat outside of religion – but they’ve since been sort of diminished somewhat.

So, I really went about learning from this wonderful lady, Alex, who’s in the book. She’s from Ecuador, but she spends lots of time throughout the year in Mexico with the elders and the grandmas. And she just learns as much as she can while she’s there. And she just very willingly taught me some beautiful practices and ways to move past a lot of these old patterns, and this baggage I was sort of lugging around. And I really need to actually – now I’m saying this out loud – get back into doing these things more regularly.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Was it, like, a meditation type of practice?

Fearne Cotton:

Well, actually, the one that I found deeply powerful was writing a letter. There was… two letters. There was one to the universe about what I wanted for the book. And every time I would sit and write, I would light a candle and put it atop that letter. Then there was another one to myself, which flew out of me. Because I was like, ‘I know all the stuff that I’m getting wrong. I know all the boundaries and the things I’ve created for myself.’ And I had to write just freely – things I wanted to change and things I was aware of, whatever. And then Alex, we did the session together where I took the letter in an envelope and I sort of wiped it over my physical body, sort of moving where the energy felt trapped especially; it was sort of more intuitive, like, ‘Where do I feel it?’ And that was quite meditative. That was maybe half an hour of doing that. Because she was like, “No, keep going. Keep going.”

Elizabeth Rovere:

So, like symbolically and literally letting it go.

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah, yeah. Like getting it, getting it… like, my stuff gets caught up here somewhere – like, below my neck – I can feel it. It’s there. Sometimes it can be jaw or head, but it’s quite chesty, sort of here. And then I burned the letter, which is obviously… there’s lots of symbolism around fire and light. And then caught the ashes in a small pot and then took them to a little flower bed – you could do it in your garden or a park – and scattered the ashes, covered it with soil and then lay gifts for the earth. So yeah, like, cacao and flowers, and you could put anything down you wanted at all, gems or stones, or anything that you believe would be a lovely offering for the land.

And then you let all of that grow and turn into the soil, to help with nurturing the plants and the flowers. And it was just a nice cycle to work through. Really powerful. I didn’t want this book to be sort of like, either sort of… really far out or weird or whatever. But so many weird things happened during the writing of that book that I was like, ‘This is ridiculous. This is inexplicable. What is going on?’

Elizabeth Rovere:

Exactly.

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Rovere:

What is going on? I mean, there’s so many things that you said that were striking to me. One is that, like, just that process of having it come off and through your body and writing the letter and then burning it. The transformation, putting it into the earth for something else to grow out of it. And then you’re like, ‘And these things are happening, and I don’t even know how to understand it.’ To me, it’s just like, as you’re talking, it’s just sort of this opening and this growth process of awareness of things that we’re capable of. And then you talk about this person, Alex, who is speaking to the elders, and it’s like, that’s great. Thank you for speaking to the elders instead of ignoring the elders, like we do.

Fearne Cotton:

They’re the ones that know everything.

Elizabeth Rovere:

That know everything.

Fearne Cotton:

And it’s that, this is not me doing it a few times a year. This is their daily practice. They wouldn’t dare get into the sea before they’d laid a flower in it or put some sort of offering. And we take all this for granted. I’m going for a swim in the sea, see you later. We jump in the sea, we just can. And it’s like, we haven’t said hello. This is what I try and do in the UK. I love sea swimming, even when it’s freezing – and it is freezing here. To get in the water and to say, “Please accept me into your waters.” Or you say whatever you want. Or you can ask the sea for wisdom. We’ve lost that communication with nature, and we know we have, but we’re not really doing anything about it. So, I’m just trying to…

Elizabeth Rovere:

And now we’re in a crisis about it.

Fearne Cotton:

We’re in a huge mind-blowing, terrifying crisis, because we’ve lost it that much. I mean, it’s awful. I think for most of us, it just… what…

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s like the great irony, it cracks me up sort of, I mean, in a tragic kind of way. Where it’s like, we’re a part… we are nature, we’re part of it. What do we really think? That we’re somehow separate?

Fearne Cotton:

We do.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I know, it’s crazy.

Fearne Cotton:

Sort of this weird, selfish, strange psychology, we’ve just got used to it. It’s not even our fault. This comes from the patriarchy, and advertising companies, and the three biggest companies that basically run the world. We don’t stand a chance. We still can make good choices, but it’s so huge, the problem. And we are such a tiny speck in it. And I think a lot of the blame gets put on the individual, like, ‘You should be doing this. You shouldn’t be flying as much. You should be recycling.’ It’s like, what about these monster companies that are literally running the world? And we cannot infiltrate their mindset at all.

They’ve been doing what they’ve been doing for hundreds of years. So, I think it’s hard for everybody, because we’re all trying our best. We’re all trying to make positive changes. But I think most of us still feel a bit sick, a bit guilty about it. But I do think, even if we can have that awareness and respect for nature, we already know that young people and the generations to come are going to do way better than us. They’re going to come up with transformative ideas of how to change things. But if we can really incorporate that respect into our day-to-day, that’s a good start.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And it’s part of what I love about what you’re doing with your work. It’s about shifting and helping people open up their perspective, to think about things a little bit differently. To get out of this very narrow, stressed-out, achievement-oriented perfection mindset and be like, ‘Enjoy, be in the world, connect, be with nature, respect it.’ Like you were saying, thank the ocean, walk into it, feel blessed.

Fearne Cotton:

My favorite thing to do, which is obviously free, is – I’m very lucky that I live near a park, but I think if you can get in any outdoor space – I put my headphones in, I listen to beautiful music that really evokes some emotion, like I want something to make me really feel, and I cry. And I cry and walk for an hour. And I might not even be sad about anything. I just feel like… everything. And that is my therapy doing that. I do it at least once a week. I go in, music, look at the trees, birds, weep. Heaven. I love crying.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah. That’s actually really courageous and awesome. And I love hearing it. As you’re saying that I’m thinking about… It’s funny. I mean, I love music, I love dancing, and yet I sometimes find music hard to listen to, because it evokes so much emotion. And I’ve been to the New York Philharmonic once, and it blew my mind. I was like… I was so emotional; I couldn’t stop crying.

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah. I have to have music. I don’t think it would happen as freely without music. And there’s a few artists where I’m like, the first note, I’m already a wreck, but I love, love, love that feeling.

Elizabeth Rovere:

How did you find this process of listening to music and crying? Was that something that just happened to you, that you’re like, ‘Oh, I think I’d like to pursue more of this experience?’

Fearne Cotton:

I’m literally scrolling back through my life to try and work out the first time I did it. And I’m pretty sure I would’ve been around 10. I remember so clearly. Obviously when I was 10, this was in 1991, so there was no social media, we had basic computer games. But a lot of the time I was in my bedroom writing a diary or reading a magazine, like very basic sort of entertainment. And my favorite thing to do as a kid was to close the curtains behind me – so I was looking out the window and this was at night, I’d be looking out the window, but the curtain was behind me – so it was pitch, pitch black. And obviously back in the ’90s as well, there was way less light pollution. I lived in the suburbs, but you could see all the stars.

And I would have my little hi-fi, and I would put a CD or a tape in of some beautiful music and just look at all the stars, and just feel completely overwhelmed, and just sort of like, ‘Wow, there’s something else going on here. It can’t just be going to school, coming back, having my tea; there’s something else.’ And I could feel it then. So, I think I’ve always turned to music. Because before I did all this wellbeing – whatever you want to call it – stuff and Happy Place, I was a radio DJ and a music TV host. It was my everything. I hosted Top Of The Pops. I did The Chart Show. We had this Radio 1 show called the Live Lounge where bands would come in. And we had all sorts of people, like Eminem and Rihanna, and the biggest stars, singing live.

And I’ve always just felt like music is the biggest gift ever and I can’t get enough of it. And it’s helped me through things. It’s brought me joy. It’s been the soundtracks to some of the best memories and exciting times. I just can’t do it myself. So, I’m in awe of musicians. ‘How are you doing that? How are you creating this magic?’ So, I’m the most enthusiastic spectator, because it’s given me so much; I love it. So, I can’t imagine not having that as a way of sort of releasing stuff. Whether it is dancing and craziness, but really, it’s more so the emotional side of things and it just draws it out of me.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Is it the rhythm and the lyrics or one more than the other?

Fearne Cotton:

I think it’s all of it. I think musicians are so clever when they get it right, and they’re able to create something where certainly the lyrics speak to you and you go, ‘Oh, my God, that’s exactly what I’m feeling.’ That I just find extraordinary. But I think going throughout history to when musical instruments first came about, humans have an understanding that certain notes together do something to a human brain and a body, you know, you get goosebumps.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You feel it in your body.

Fearne Cotton:

Honestly, I could talk about music until the cows come home.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Well, it’s very shamanic, right?

Fearne Cotton:

It is.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I mean, it’s sort of like that kind of sensation, the vibration, the rhythm, and the lyrics when they’re the right ones that really hit you.

Fearne Cotton:

Because it takes away all inhibition. It’s like the music says, “I see who you are as a human without all the stuff around you. I see who you are” – and you go, “Yeah, this is me.”

Elizabeth Rovere:

And you start expressing it. Yeah, that’s fantastic. You know, you say that… I mean, I can’t remember if I’ve read this or listened to it in one of your interviews, but you talk about as a kid feeling this sense of something bigger or this sense of magic. And then you also talk about how your mom influenced you in this way. And I think she took you to a meditation when you were eight or something like this?

Fearne Cotton:

She used to take me to… somebody did yoga in a church hall near us. And nobody did yoga in the ’80s or ’90s in the suburbs of London. So, I was always like, “Yeah, I’ll come.” I think I went along a couple of times, either watched or took part. But she was really always encouraging stuff that was, at the time, very outside the box. So, I remember when I had a big breakup as a teen and she was like, “I know this lady that does rebirthing, give it a go.” And I had this very powerful rebirth experience, which was sort of breathing techniques and crazy.

And we had this funny little… I mean, back in the day we would call it a little hippie shop. It had wind chimes and dreamcatchers and crystals and stuff. And they did different practices in an upstairs treatment room. So, they would do some past-life regression or just reiki, kinesiology… So, we were in there quite a lot trying new things out. And Mum’s just always been quite open-minded. But I think she would also be honest in saying sometimes it’s because she can’t deal with the darkness, or she doesn’t want to poke around in it or look at it. So, it’s been her way out of that.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Interesting, that’s interesting.

Fearne Cotton:

I think going back, I’m probably much more prone to like, ‘I’m going to poke around in all that crap and just see why it’s there, what’s in it, what I can do about it.’ I think my mum would rather live around dreamcatchers and be doing all the nice practices that pull her away from that. And I think she would admit that. Because she’s had her own mental health issues throughout her whole life since she was a teenager with depression, anxiety, OCD. So, I think she’s used it as a comfort, I think, really. Which again, I think there’s worse things you could be doing to alleviate yourself.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Oh, God, yeah, of course. It’s interesting, because it’s like, that kind of thing can be such a mixed bag. On the one hand, it can be very calming and grounding, and comforting. On the other hand, it can, sort of, all of a sudden excavate something. And you’ve interviewed a lot of interesting folks about mental health or emotional fortitude in your podcast. Like Glennon Doyle was fascinating, Russell Brand. But one of my favorites is with your mom on Mother’s Day. And you know, you all are talking about these kinds of things, which was, I found it really profound.

Fearne Cotton:

It was the first time. It was the first time we’d done it. And it was weird.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And it was a lot. It was recorded.

Fearne Cotton:

I think it was almost better that we did it in that format. Because we both knew what we were walking into. And I knew where not to go. There’s some things my mum wouldn’t be happy talking about or things that I wouldn’t want to probe, because she’s probably not at peace with them. And equally with me. I’m very open whenever I do interviews, but there’s stuff that I’m very, very happy to talk about, because I see that there’s hopefully worth in it for other people. Whereas there’s some things that I probably still haven’t made peace with that I think, ‘Why would I say that and cause myself more turmoil? And would that really be helpful to anybody else at this point, until I’m really sure that I can talk about this properly?’

So, I was really nervous interviewing my mum, really nervous. Because we just hadn’t been there. And I wish that I’d had that chat with my nan, her mum, because she had all sorts of stuff going on. It’s like, we just didn’t do that back then. We just didn’t. And I missed the boat. And she’s not around anymore. So, you can’t get those answers and fill the blanks in of the story.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Right. No, I hear you. I mean, it’s incredible. But you did talk about your nan a little bit, and some of her experiences during the war. I mean, I was listening to that, and I was like, ‘That is just…’ It was really fascinating. You talk about the generational trauma and the fear that goes through her life, your mom’s life, and then somewhat with your life, and what do we do with that? But as I was listening to that, I was like, ‘What you’ve done is so brilliant. You’ve recorded something that… your children, your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren will be able to hear this.’

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah, I really hope… I mean, I hadn’t actually recognized that that’s the case, weirdly, I think because I was so focused on that day.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Of course, yeah.

Fearne Cotton:

But that is actually quite cool. And I hope that they do listen to it one day. I mean, I hope that they do read the books and all of it. I don’t know if they will, they’ll probably be like, “Oh,” yawn, “I’ve got to listen to this crap again.’ But I hope they do with my mum. Because I think it’s crazy for any of us to think that all of the problems or challenges that we face in life are just ours, and that we’ve created them all. So much of this stuff is generational.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Absolutely.

Fearne Cotton:

And for a lot of the people in the UK and Europe, their immediate grandparents were living through World War II, and their lives were completely and utterly ruined. And they were all completely traumatized, and they all came out with different trauma. But my grandparents were very young, because they had my mum very, very young when they were 18. So they were tiny kids in the war. So they were all evacuated, they were treated really badly by the families that looked after them. So then when they come back… And then my nan’s sister died of TB when she was seven. So, my nan was deeply traumatized, deeply traumatized. And then had my mom at 18. You are not mentally capable of bringing up a kid with all of that baggage. And there wasn’t therapy back then, obviously. There was no one talking about, “How are you mentally?” They just go, “Crack on! Get on with it.”

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, yeah. And feel ashamed of it.

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah, feel ashamed. Like, ‘Where’s your stoicism? Get on with it.’ It was all just kind of, like, stiff upper lip, crack on with it in the UK. So that generation had such a rough ride – and nobody to talk to or lean on. Then that obviously affected their kids. And then that’s affected us in a way, nowhere near as extreme as obviously our grandparents dealing with it. But the aftermath is there. And I think it is our job now to go, ‘God, I’m carrying all that anxiety.’ Not all of it, but I’m certainly picking up patterns of anxiety or worry, or absolutely overthinking things, catastrophizing. And no shit, it’s only two generations ago. It’s not like it was our great, great, great, great grandparents. I hung out with them as a kid the whole time. I knew these people really well and loved them. So, of course, we’re going to be dealing with that stuff. And I think it’s quite a fun thing to start exploring it and asking questions. And I just wish I’d asked questions when they were alive. I wish.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I know, I know, I totally hear you. I lost my mom a year and a half ago.

Fearne Cotton:

Oh, God, I’m so sorry.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Thank you. Yeah, it’s profound to lose your mom. It’s just like… it’s very destabilizing, right?

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And I miss her terribly. And we were able to have a couple of conversations before she passed that were kind of remarkable. I had… actually slightly tangential, but I was studying yoga. And so I was having this conversation with her, because back in the ’70s she had a near-death experience. I know. And she was very kind of… my mom was not particularly spiritual, very practical, just very kind of just like, this, this, this. Not really big picture, just basic practical person.

And I said, “Mom,” – this was when I was doing the yoga studies. And I said, “Mom, you know, you had that near-death experience?” So, she’s like, “Well, what do you mean? When I saw the light?” And I said, “Yeah, the light.” And she’s like, “Yeah, yeah. It was so funny, wasn’t it?” I wasn’t there to know exactly what she was experiencing until my sister and I heard her tell the story later. But she said she was in the hospital, she had typhoid fever and, all of a sudden, she saw this big bright light and then was like going towards this tunnel. And she wasn’t so sure about the tunnel.

Fearne Cotton:

Whoa.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And she decided she better come back, because the tunnel was a little bit unnerving. And she woke up and all of these people were standing around the bed, including a minister. And she’s like, “What’s wrong with these people? Why are they here?”

Fearne Cotton:

Oh, my goodness. That’s extraordinary.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Isn’t it? And this was a couple years ago. And I said, “Mom, does that ever make you feel…” – she was in her eighties – I was like, “Does it ever make you feel less afraid or more comfortable with death?” And she’s like, “Huh. I guess so.” It’s just like, ‘Who is this person?’ So, I was so glad to have that conversation. So, that was really cool. And now my sister and I have been going through some of these family heirlooms and boxes that have been packaged up for God knows how long. And I found a note from a journal from my great-grandmother. And it was, like, from December 31^st, 1929. And she’s talking about the Great Depression.

And it was a gift to me to be able to see that, and what she was worried about. And she had also lost one of her children to some kind of illness. I’m not sure what. And so, I thought when I was hearing this interview with you and your mom, and I was like, ‘Wow. They’ll be able to hear you talking, and talking about your grandma, and talking about your own issues with anxiety or catastrophizing – and normalizing it, not being ashamed about it.’

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I mean, I’m telling you, that’s going to stop or interrupt the cycle.

Fearne Cotton:

I hope so. Because I think parenting is something I really overthink a lot. And I, like most parents, constantly worry, ‘Am I getting it right? Oh, my God, I definitely got that wrong,’ and beat myself up about things. And the only thing I know I am getting right, is that I’m honest with them. So, one day they might want to listen to that. One day they can read all sorts of things in books or come to me, hopefully. That’s what I would love… is for them to in times where they’re not dealing well with things to approach me about it. My kids are seven and nine, so then it’s not an age where I’m going to be like, “Let’s have a serious mental health chat.” But I’ll certainly try, even to normalize fear. They’re both a little bit sort of worried at nighttime and Honey overthinks things.

And I’ll try and help her with that by going… I mean, I’m a terrible sleeper, so I’m like, “Look, this is me every night. This is my head. I’m not, like, going mad. And just trying to do it in small ways. So, for all the things that I’ve definitely messed up – and I make mistakes every day with parenting – I do know that I’m as honest as I can be with them at this age. And I hope that that serves me well down the line and that they’ll want to come to me if they do have concerns or they want to talk about things or whatever. Because it’s tricky, isn’t it? Even you talking to your mom before she passed, me talking to my mom on the podcast, it’s a very strange conversation to approach.

When do you do that? If you go to your parents’ house or they come to you for tea or even you see your auntie or your nan or whoever it is. You know, you do all the platitudes, “Oh, how you doing? How was your weekend?” Blah blah. When do you go in with the, “Let’s talk about the past” or… “How do you do that?” So, I think people don’t, because it seems weird or out of context in the environment or something. But I still would encourage people to approach it, if they feel willing.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I completely agree with you. Because yeah, it’s true, you don’t. It’s like we sort of take it for granted in a way. Like, ‘Why would I want to talk to them about that?’

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah. And I just think it’s so interesting how it’s informed how you are as a human, and how you move through the world. Everyone will have a different experience. Whether it’s due to… if there are families out there that are second-generation immigrants, or generations that went through the Holocaust. All of these huge traumas will have rippled through to inform who you are today. And I think we can’t ignore that. We can’t just go, ‘Oh, I just have anxiety’ or, ‘I don’t deal with stress well.’ It’s like, ‘Look at what your grandparents went through or your parents went through,’ or whatever it is. Because it will all have made a mark and have shaped who you are and how you move through the world.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And it helps to put it in perspective and normalize aspects of it. You’re not crazy. There’s a context for this and it makes sense. How did you know that this was the time, this past year, to talk to your mom about these things? How did you choose Mother’s Day of this past year?

Fearne Cotton:

I really don’t know. Because I had thought about it before. And my mom had even said to me, “I’d love to talk to you one day.” And I thought…

Elizabeth Rovere:

Oh, wow.

Fearne Cotton:

And I thought, ‘Oh, really?’ Because we’d never had that chat. And she’d said a few things more recently. Like, we did an episode with the actor Tuppence Middleton, specifically about OCD. And my mum had said to me, “Oh yeah, I’ve had OCD over the years on/off plenty.” And I was like, “I didn’t know that. What?” So, she’d started to say a few more things, because I assumed if I approached it and said, “If you come on the podcast, you know we’ve got to have an honest chat. It can’t be like us messing about.” Because my mum can be really funny and entertaining. It’s like, “It can’t be you batting away things with jokes. It has to be the real deal.”

So, I think I was nervous going into that space. But for some reason, I think she dropped a few things this year. I thought, ‘Maybe it would actually be quite cool.’ And the best thing about it was one of my cousins, who’s quite a bit younger than me, texts me afterwards. And she’s usually out doing cool things. She doesn’t bother texting me. And I’m always going like, “I miss you, how are you?” And she texts me saying, “Oh, I’d really like to just talk to you about a few things.” And I was like…

Elizabeth Rovere:

Wow.

Fearne Cotton:

“Oh, my God. What!” And she was like, “Well, I heard that… with your mum, and just thought it’d be good to have a chat with you about some things that I’ve been experiencing.” And I was like, “Yes, I would love that.”

And we had a huge walk in the countryside and chatted for two hours. I didn’t think it would have any impact on people I knew, well, relatives. Because a lot of the time my family don’t go to me, “Oh, how was the podcast?” or, “How was work?” We are just all family chatting about family stuff. But it impacted her enough to want to have a proper chat, which felt really special. So, that was very cool. And I was thinking, “Oh, I hope this is happening to other families, that they are wanting to…” Because I forget that people even listen to the podcast. I just enjoy making it. So, to have my cousin sort of say, “Oh, I listened to this and I’m feeling this,” I was like, ‘What?’ It blew my mind somewhat.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I really appreciated how you talk about anger. Because coming from my line of work, it’s like anger is great – it’s unlocking all of this energy and passion. And once you can have access to that, then you don’t have to go out and throw rocks. You can actually do something with it.

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah, use it as fire.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Use it, it’s fuel.

Fearne Cotton:

It’s power. I think for women especially, it’s a really weird off-limit subject. Women aren’t allowed to be angry, they’re not allowed to show anger. It’s really, as far as… men, they have also a lot of sport where they can get all this rage out: boxing and rugby and sort of screaming at the wind, throwing things in strongman competitions. And we’re meant to be, like, contained and keeping it within. No, I tell you what, I’m effing angry all the time about things. I get angry so easily. My mum’s really sparky, so it’s probably a generational thing. I am really angry about so many things all the time. The only thing I’m trying to do, and it…

Elizabeth Rovere:

And you should be. There’s a lot of things to be angry about.

Fearne Cotton:

There’s so much to be angry about. The thing is, the thing that I learned – and I remember my friend Zephyr telling me this is – anger’s fine as long as you don’t pass it onto someone else purposefully and sort of go, “I blame you. It’s you.”

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, yeah, don’t attack.

Fearne Cotton:

Don’t attack. I’ll go out for a run. I’ll try and physically get out first, on a very basic level: I need this out of my body. Sometimes I fail at that, but I will try and physically get it out. I need to box or something very physical. But I think I still need to root back to, ‘But why? What is under all that?’ Because it’s just not the anger thing. Do I feel rejected? Do I feel used? Do I feel whatever it is? And trying to be accountable for it. I mean, I’m not…

Elizabeth Rovere:

Right.

Fearne Cotton:

…I’m not saying that I nail it every time. And obviously I’ve taken it out on my husband over the years.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I can join you on that.

Fearne Cotton:

I think most people will be like, “Mm-huh.” Because it’s easy, because he’s there all the time. And he’ll still like me afterwards, hopefully. But I think we all do it to a level. Like, “Why have you left that car door open?” And it’s not that, it’s something that happened a week ago.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s something else.

Fearne Cotton:

It’s something very deep. But anger is, yeah, I’ve used it in so many work projects to focus, to have the fire in my belly, to get things out of me. Writing certainly, I write way better I think if I’ve got a bit of anger bubbling away.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Mm-huh. I think it’s great. I mean, I was recently talking to someone about anger who studies Hinduism. And we were talking about the goddess Kali, the blue one with all the arms and the open mouth. And she’s angry, because she’s going around and slashing and burning the ego and all the bullshit. And there’s a comfortable goddess in Egyptian mythology called Sekhmet, that also just, like, kind of went wild and was like massacring all these people who had a big ego… Or not, it was symbolic of the ego, the mind. And they get kind of demonized literally when they’re written about as the crazy mad woman. The crazy angry woman. That’s because they’re not supposed to be that. And it’s like, no, feminism is reclaiming these people because…

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah, what do you want them to be? Fairies…

Elizabeth Rovere:

…it’s empowering.

Fearne Cotton:

…like putting little magic spells on people. No, we need to get it out. Exorcize it. And yeah, I agree.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes. And get real

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah, yeah, I love that.

Elizabeth Rovere:

So, I think it’s good.

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah. Anger’s good. Because the worst thing you can do for your physical and mental health is to keep it all in you and suppress it. But what is that doing to your insides, where is that anger going to go? That scares me when I feel like I haven’t gotten it out of me. I’m like, ‘Oh, God, where is it in my body? I don’t want it changing cells or doing stuff.’ Because we know. I’ve listened to enough Dr Joe Dispenza stuff to know that that’s not good. I don’t want that stress in my physical body. And again, I don’t always nail it, I don’t always get it out.

But I think you have to look for a way, rather than go, ‘Nope, I’m just going to remain quiet about this one, and keep it all in, and not say anything.’ Because where is… And it doesn’t mean you have to go around saying to people, “You’ve annoyed me,” whatever. It’s working at being, I guess, sort of emotionally independent enough to work out how it’s going to work best for you, get it out physically, work for it mentally. And I have to do that all the time and still fail at it miserably all the time. But I’m aware of it.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah. No, it’s a learning process, right?

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s like you have to acknowledge it and then, ‘How am I going to work with it in some way that’s not completely destructive? How can I be productive with it?’

Fearne Cotton:

Well, I’ve got an example, actually. Because of course… so in the book Speak Your Truth, I wrote that book. I was due to write a book, and I was like, ‘What the hell am I going to write about?’ And then I lost my voice completely over Christmas – and I literally only talk for a living: I don’t do anything. I write and I talk. So, if I haven’t got a voice, I’m screwed; I’m not working. So, I was like, ‘What is going on with my voice? There’s something happening and it’s not good. And I don’t know what…’ And it was like a month where I could speak, but it was really croaky, it sounded awful. So, I went to the doctor, put a camera down my nose and there was a huge cyst on my vocal cord, so they just weren’t shutting. So, all this air was sort of rushing through.

And instantly, I almost laughed. I was like, ‘I know what this is. I know exactly what this is.’ There’s so many things – and they probably were attached to anger, a lot of the time, that I’m not saying out loud. I’m not telling people what I need, because I’m like, “Oh no, no, I don’t need it, I’m fine. I’ll get on with it.” So, I can be quite like that. But then I get resentful, because they haven’t mind-read that I need certain things. So that’s a terrible pattern of mine. I haven’t told people at times that I’m not okay with things. I’m not willing to do this, say that… whatever.

Again, I don’t know if it’s being a female in this industry, but I felt like I couldn’t at times, and I’ve done things I didn’t want to. And it was a lump of just resentment and stuff in my throat. And once I started working on that book, and really thinking about that and trying to… Again, not going around angrily shouting, but saying to people, “Look, I’m not willing to do that,” very politely or “I need this,” or whatever it is. I went back to the doctor, but to have a checkup before I was meant to have the operation, and it had gone.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You’re kidding.

Fearne Cotton:

No, it just went.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I love it.

Fearne Cotton:

And I think there’s something like 5% naturally dispersed, but there was a 95% chance I was going to have to have it removed, go in to voice coaching afterwards, won’t be able to speak for a month. But it just went.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Because you realized what it was about.

Fearne Cotton:

I mean, I’m hoping on, again, a Dr Joe Dispenza note, that that’s what I kind of helped with. Some people might disagree, and that’s up for debate. But I certainly felt like I did a lot of practical work on righting a few wrongs. And again, it’s probably still the thing that I struggle with more than anything is: saying what I believe, what I need, what I don’t want. I find it very, very difficult. I’m a people pleaser. I want people around me to feel happy, to feel comfortable. I want to leave situations the same or better than I found them. I don’t like causing drama or stress. I’m very uncomfortable with it.

So, I’ve really put myself through it and suffered through things, because I haven’t said, “I need this, I don’t want that,” or whatever it is. And it could be teeny things. Like I used to get petrified of saying to a cab driver, “Oh, I’m too cold. Can you turn the air con off?” I would just sit there in the back shivering like a bag of ice because I couldn’t say it. Like silly, silly things. And that’s still weirdly… I’m a communicator for my job, but I still really struggle with it.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah. No, it’s fascinating, right?

Fearne Cotton:

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Because then you’ve been working on it, you’ve written about it, and you’ve seen the whole process of, like, whether again, what you believe or not believe, but having an aspect of what the cause of this cyst was. And shifting it, shifting it in your consciousness and your way of being, and everything recalibrates. I mean, I see it that way. There’s this great expression: ‘Your issues are in your tissues’ – have you heard?

Fearne Cotton:

Yes, so good.

Elizabeth Rovere:

But so, there’s aspects of it that are true, right?

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And that are impacting how we function. I mean, how could it not bother you? It causes stress. I mean, I’m with you on that. It’s really, really hard sometimes. It’s almost like learning a new language. And then you say your truth and you’re like, ‘Is it okay? Did anything terrible happen?’

Fearne Cotton:

And we’re all so scared of being rejected.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, exactly.

Fearne Cotton:

Terrified. I mean I know I am. Because my rejection isn’t, ‘I’m going to be alone.’ My rejection is, ‘Oh, I am bad. I am a bad person. I thought I was, and now you’ve confirmed it.’ That drives so many decisions, good and bad, that I make in life. You are going to reject me and that will prove that I am as bad as I think I am. Because we all probably have that – I mean, I certainly do – voice of, ‘You’re selfish. You could have done more. You’re a shitty person.’ Whatever it is, a list of things that we berate ourselves with. This, like, acerbic voice in our heads.

So, when someone matches that and says, ‘Yeah, you are,’ I have the propensity to go, ‘Oh, yeah, I believe you.’ More than going seeking what I deeply know, an actual knowing of, ‘We’re all love, we’re light and shade, we’re good and bad,’ but inherently I can tune into that love, and I know it’s there. I’ll throw that out the window and go, ‘I’ll believe that person’ – who I don’t even know, by the way, a stranger. ‘Oh, yeah, yeah. I’ll believe you, I’m a piece of shit. Cool. I’ll stick with that, it’s easier.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah. Isn’t that funny? It’s like somehow this stranger knows more than you would even apparently know yourself. Who are they?

Fearne Cotton:

And I’m going to base my whole week on your opinion. And I’m going to ruin my own week because you tell me I’m an idiot, so thank you. I’m going to believe you, and not me or people that love me. Why? Why do we do this?

Elizabeth Rovere:

I know, that is insanity, right? We all do this. I can’t stand it. It’s so self-destructive. It’s like, you would never treat anyone else like that and we do it to ourselves.

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah. Yeah. We’re horrible to ourselves.

Elizabeth Rovere:

But it’s right, it’s like, ‘We can protect ourselves because we’ll attack ourselves so no one else can do it. Because then we’re in control.’ But it’s just crazy. I mean, so yeah, it was one of my questions, too: what are you doing these days to attenuate the naysayer?

Fearne Cotton:

Well, there are many things, and some are good and some are bad. Some will be numbing through, like, looking on Instagram or buying things, or just not going to think about it – la, la, la, numbing. But then other times, I will make a better decision. And it will usually be my walk in the park, which is my number one go to. I’ll do that before I’ve even thought about the options: I’m putting my trainers on and I’m going out with my headphones in. I’m very lucky that I’ve got some great mates that love having these conversations. I’ve also got a really good friend who’s sort of said, “I want to mentor you in ways,” as well, which I’ve found incredibly generous. And she’s a little bit older than me. She’s got an amazing backstory. And I can go to her at any point and say, “I’m feeling this, I’m feeling that.”

And she’ll either say, “Great, here’s my advice” or “Let’s chat.” Or she’ll be very honest – because we’ve got a brilliantly honest relationship with boundaries, where she will go, “I’m with my grandkids right now. I can’t talk, but I’ll call you tomorrow,” – and I will take zero offense. I won’t feel it. I’ll just go, “Cool.” And we’ll deal with that then. So that’s a really great relationship, that one. I think talking to mates always just makes you feel less in it on your own or less of a freak or whatever it is that’s going on in your head.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Absolutely.

Fearne Cotton:

Because sometimes good friends can help you challenge that in a naysayer and get rid of that ugly voice that’s really kind of ruling the day. So, I think they’re the teammate. I keep it really simple. I mean, I do like to regularly partake in lots of different things. This evening, I’m going to visit this amazing shaman that I know. And she does some beautiful, very traditional practices, and she does five-element acupuncture. And…

Elizabeth Rovere:

I know who you’re talking about.

Fearne Cotton:

Do you?

Elizabeth Rovere:

Wendy.

Fearne Cotton:

Yes. Yeah. I love Wendy. Have you seen Wendy?

Elizabeth Rovere:

I have not seen Wendy, but I’ve heard you talk about her and I’ve listened to her on different YouTube videos, and she seems fantastic.

Fearne Cotton:

She’s amazing. So, she’s great. I mean, that’s a real treat.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I bet, I bet.

Fearne Cotton:

It’s a treat. I feel lucky I get to do stuff like that. And I’ve met these people on the way.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I even remember you said something about – she put the acupuncture needle in your rib and the electricity went through your body.

Fearne Cotton:

The first time I saw her, I was just like, ‘I don’t know what’s going on.’ It was just this full sensory experience of, ‘What the hell?’

Elizabeth Rovere:

Can you explain what that…

Fearne Cotton:

Well, the five-element acupuncture is amazing.

Elizabeth Rovere:

But you’re like not… the experience.

Fearne Cotton:

The experience is incredible. I’ve seen another practitioner called Gerad Kite, who is, again, exceptionally knowledgeable about five-element. And it’s obviously, again, a very, very traditional Chinese way of using acupuncture. So, rather than putting the needles in and leaving them, there’s a needle put in, which is in a precise area that they believe you need, because they know what your element is, that is your weakness. So, I’m weak in wood. So, they can tell that by – which is ironic, because my married name is wood – but they can sense that by the tinge of color by the side of your eyes; by your smell, which they have another understanding of smell. It’s not like, “Oh, I like your perfume.” It’s another… like, I think wood is rancid or something awful; and also by your manner; the tone of voice when you’re talking about certain subjects, whatever. So, these particular points they choose are very specific. And they put the needle in and twist it, and you feel this… like a firework. Like a surge of energy. And then the needle comes straight out again. And it’s just wild. I mean, it’s a full-body experience. And sometimes, you’ll reap the benefits days afterwards where you just notice, yeah, strange subtle shifts in all sorts of parts of your life. It’s amazing. It’s amazing.

But I always say, as lucky as I feel to get to try things out like this or do breathwork classes, whatever, I think unless you are also doing the actual work work – where you are looking at yourself, you’re looking at your behavior, you’re looking at your patterns – none of that stuff’s going to touch the sides. You can drink all the green juice, you can smear Reishi mushrooms up your ass, do whatever you like. It’s not going to do anything unless you’re going to go, ‘Oh, gosh, I have to look in the mirror. I have to look in the mirror and do some stuff here.’ Because I just think…

Elizabeth Rovere:

I have to look at the shadow.

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah. Because the commercialized side of the wellness industry – which again, everything has good and bad sides – will tell you, if you try this, do that, whatever, you’ll be fixed, you’ll be perfect, you’ll be great. Whereas I think the journey I’m going on is, ‘Oh, there’s no end.’ I just keep going and I just keep looking at having an awareness of myself and, ‘Oh, I dealt with that badly,’ or ‘I shouldn’t have done this,’ or try something different. Or look at my past or whatever. I think you can’t rely on just exterior things to move you through life. I think you’ve got to do the…

Elizabeth Rovere:

The inner work.

Fearne Cotton:

…looking at the shadow.

Elizabeth Rovere:

The inner work and the shadow. Yeah. The mess.

Fearne Cotton:

The mess.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I mean, it’s interesting that you say that, because it takes me back to what you said partly in the beginning, that as a little kid looking at this beautiful sky out your window and thinking about something that is bigger and what that is. So, it’s not just about like, ‘Oh, I’ll go get acupuncture or get a massage,’ or whatever wellness thing that I’m doing, or ‘Do breath work and feel really great.’ That’s awesome, but it’s that… what is really bigger? What is something that’s going on? And that there is… terrifying things or dark things, and they’re interwoven with all of these other things that we just don’t know. One of the things I heard you… I’m trying to remember where I heard you say this. I think it was in the interview on Penguin about Bigger Than Us. And you said something like…

Fearne Cotton:

Oh, God, what did I say?

Elizabeth Rovere:

“We have to know that we just don’t know anything.”

Fearne Cotton:

I’ll have to always land on that one, otherwise I go mad. Again, we don’t know. Like, if we don’t know what’s out there… My brain, when I start to think about infinity, explodes. I’m like, ‘What do you mean? It can’t go on forever.’ Because there has to be something at the other side of it. And then when does that end? I can’t. So, because our pea-sized brains cannot grasp what that means, how do we think we know all the other stuff? We don’t know anything. And this is why I hate when people do rants on YouTube or talks, whatever, and they’re, like, factually speaking, ‘This is the thing, and this is what you’ve got to do, and this is this.’

I’m like, ‘How do you know?’ I don’t know anything. I’ve written loads of books and I do loads of talks. My books aren’t didactic. They’re not saying, ‘And then you should do this and then this will happen.’ I’m going, ‘I don’t know what’s going on. I’m just going to try some stuff.’ And then at the end of it, I still don’t know what’s going on. But that was cool or whatever. None of us know anything.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And this is what I’ve seen.

Fearne Cotton:

This is what I’ve seen, what I’ve felt, what I’ve experienced. But I don’t know anything. Because it changes every day.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It changes every day…

Fearne Cotton:

Every second some days.

Elizabeth Rovere:

You know it’s funny, on the one hand you would think, well, I mean I guess I should just talk about my own experience. I think that I would feel scared of not knowing that there’s so much that we don’t know that it’s inexplainable. But I actually feel relieved.

Fearne Cotton:

Same! I feel so relieved. We are tiny little dots roaming around a tiny dot in space, but we don’t really know what’s going on. And I think if we can just land on that. And then when the good stuff happens, you’re like, ‘What? That’s exciting, that’s so cool. That’s amazing. I’ll welcome that in. There’s room for something new. I’ll change my opinion.’ People don’t like to change their opinion; they don’t like it. They don’t like it. And I don’t a lot of the time. But if we can, and we can go, ‘Oh, God, yeah, maybe I was wrong actually. And I’m open to thinking about things from another angle.’ Then we’re going to learn.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes. And we need that. We have to be able to talk about it and learn and say, “Oh, I don’t know,” or…

Fearne Cotton:

And get things wrong.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, and get things wrong.

Fearne Cotton:

Mess up.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah.

Fearne Cotton:

Because this is the cancel-culture thing I can’t abide. It’s the worst thing that’s happened on a mental health scope in years for all of us because…

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s silencing.

Fearne Cotton:

It’s awful. If we can’t get things wrong, like we could in the ’80s and ’90s, and then go, “Oh, sorry, I got that wrong. I won’t do that again.” Or “I’ll try,” or, “I’ll say something,” whatever. I’m not saying that being wrong is okay and continuing being wrong… You have to then go, “Oh, I was wrong. I’ll try something new.” But to be canceled and silenced because you messed up is lunacy.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Or that you didn’t know somehow.

Fearne Cotton:

How are we meant to know everything? I don’t know how certain cultures live on certain parts of the planet. I would love to learn. I’m always willing to learn anything, but I don’t know all of it because I’ve been too busy raising kids sometimes or working on a project or whatever. There’s stuff I would love to learn. I’m ignorant to loads of stuff, which is not good, but I’m willing to learn. I can’t know it, or none of us can know it all, we can’t be perfect. There’s got to be room to mess up, and room to go, “Oh cool, I’ll learn about this new thing,” or whatever it might be. It’s mad to think we should know everything.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s the foundation of mental health. There has to be room to mess up…

Fearne Cotton:

Yes.

Elizabeth Rovere:

…or we’re not going to grow, we’re not going to learn, we’re not going to feel better.

Fearne Cotton:

No. We’ll be very boring for a start.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Ah, God, boring. And so careful and walking on eggshells, which is happening. I mean, I can’t stand it either. And I heard you talking about this in your interview with Yungblud. And just that this is, like, stifling creativity.

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah. I think he’s found it very hard, but he’s really willing to put himself out there. And I just admire him so much for that. But I think we’ve got to mess up. And I talk about my own mental health problems, in the past, I’ve had whatever. If someone said something to me that was triggering or whatever, I wouldn’t have a go at them or say, “I can’t believe you said that.” I’d probably just actually walk away and say nothing. Because I’d go, “Look, I don’t need to take that on board.” Or if I really felt there was room for us to have a decent chat, I might initiate that or say, “Let’s talk more about this.” But just to cancel a conversation or someone, that’s mad.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, it is mad. It’s devastating actually. Because it’s silencing people and we’re developing a way of having more superficial relationships that we’ve never had.

Fearne Cotton:

Yes, where you just pretend that you know everything to keep the other person happy or just say what they need you to say.

Elizabeth Rovere:

We’re pretending that we agree with… about something that maybe both of us don’t even agree about it. And it cracks me up. I’m like, it just feels complete… that feels crazy.

Fearne Cotton:

I mean, there’s things that me and my husband vehemently disagree on, but we love each other. Or friends that we just have a different take on situations, but we love each other. That’s all part of a relationship. You’re not going to be the same person.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yes, yes. The foundation is the relationship or the sense of love and interconnection and community. And if we can just sort of bank on that in a way, then we can work through anything. I mean, again, that’s group therapy. That’s psychotherapy. That’s couples therapy. Why are we not doing that? As a culture, we’re creating more and more of a divide, which we know.

Fearne Cotton:

I know. When did this start? I’m sure it was years and years before. This has been rumbling along for years.

Elizabeth Rovere:

This is generational.

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah. But it’s like, ‘When did… who created this, what’s going on here?’ This is mad.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I know. But there’s a lot of people that are talking about this now, like we’re talking about, thank God. I really hope that this will change. A need to change. Because it cracks me up as a psychologist now too. It’s like even with my clients, it used to be this thing where it’s like people were afraid to talk about money or masturbation or sex. And now it’s like, please don’t talk about critical race theory or vaccinations, because everyone’s going to get silence.

Fearne Cotton:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s crazy. It’s just mad. It’s like, ‘Why can’t we just openly talk about how we feel?’ There’s no right or wrong in some situations. It’s how you feel. It’s, “How do you feel about that?” And the feeling might be, “I’m a bit angry, but I don’t know why. I’d like to learn more,” or whatever it is. There’s got to be…

Elizabeth Rovere:

Yeah, I don’t have a big opinion on some of these things.

Fearne Cotton:

Same, same. Oh, I couldn’t give a shit. I’m just living my little life over here trying my best. And that’s the other thing is, we’ve made other people’s business our own. And that is again, a really strange concept.

Elizabeth Rovere:

Oh, it’s the horrible concept.

Fearne Cotton:

Yes. And it rallies against, again, a lot of esoteric theories where you would talk about, say, indigenous peoples would talk about, there’s the community. But the sense is you have to be okay in yourself. You have to be okay in yourself. And you have to make decisions that you believe are right for you. So that then you can mingle in a community, be of service to others. And we’ve sort of forgotten that, and we’re sacrificing our beliefs and our feelings, so that we can fit in or not be canceled. It’s like, this is seriously dangerous ground, it’s wrong.

Elizabeth Rovere:

It’s seriously dangerous ground…

Fearne Cotton:

It’s mad.

Elizabeth Rovere:

…that we’re walking on.

Fearne Cotton:

Mad.

Elizabeth Rovere:

And we just got the notice that we have only a few minutes. And, um…

Fearne Cotton:

‘How has that gone so quickly?’ is the first thought. I could talk to you for about a month.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I know, it’s like, ‘Is that right? Is that accurate?’ I know it’s great. It’s really… I mean, it’s been a pleasure to have you here. I mean…

Fearne Cotton:

Oh, my goodness, it’s been so nice talking to you.

Elizabeth Rovere:

I love it.

That was Fearne Cotton. Thank you so much, Fearne. To learn more about Fearne’s work, including her Happy Place podcast, her books and her upcoming festivals, please visit www.happyplaceofficial.co.uk. Please come back next time on Wonderstruck, when I’ll be talking about personal transformation, Forrest Yoga, finding one’s center through sewing, and the power of exceeding expectations with compassion-based resilience training expert Nalanda Institute’s own Rahshaana Green. Thank you for joining me for our first episode of Wonderstruck. For more information about the show, my guests, and some really exciting upcoming events, check out wonderstruck.org.

And please subscribe to Wonderstruck on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and YouTube. We truly want to hear from you with your feedback, reviews and ratings. You can also follow us on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok at WonderstruckPod. Wonderstruck is produced by Wonderstruck Productions with the teams at Baillie Newman and FreeTime Media. Special thanks to Brian O’Kelley, Eliana Eleftheriou, Travis Reece, Tom Camuso and VOXPOD. Thank you for listening. And remember, be open to the wonder in your own life.